CARDINAL SAYS BUSH BROKE IRAQ PROMISE

YAHOOO VIA AP ^ | 1/10/05

[calex59]

This is a lie. If you all can remember Bush said it was going to be a long haul, he has always said that. Nothing was said about quick, he has always emphasized that it would take a long time.

[gakrak]

Yeah, this is the same church that turned a blind eye to the murder of 6 million jews.

[AmericanInTokyo]

When will the Good Cardinal fly on to meet Zarky and ask him about fullfilling HIS end of the deal for peace?

[annalex]

The operation will be over when our troops leave. Or at least when they can walk around without body armor.

The gap here is between the speed of the military operation and the restoration of peace and order, which has no end in sight.

[Alberta's Child]

Does this man, Pio, believe that Saddam and Sons "stable" country is preferable to a "chaotic" Iraq that now has at least a chance at a civilized society, in charge of their own economy?

Just think about what you are saying here, and place it in the context of the Vatican's position. In addition to being "stable," Iraq also happened to be one of the few Islamic nations in the world where Christians were allowed to practice their faith openly without fear of reprisal by radical Muslims.

These men in the Vatican have been wrong for decades, allowing these Islamic cults to roam the globe, murdering innocents with impunity.

Let's look at the situation in Iraq today. You had the United States topple a totalitarian government dominated by Sunni Muslims, in the hopes that it would be replaced by some kind of democratic government. The only problem here is that any democratically-elected government in Iraq is going to be dominated by more radical Shi'ite Muslims. As far as Iraq is concerned, nobody has done more to promote "Islamic cults" than the United States.

The irony here is that Iraq has paid a severe price for their "moderation" (in relative terms, of course). The U.S. wouldn't dream of invading and occupying a country dominated by the very radical elements of Islam that you identify as the real enemy here. Do you think it's just a coincidence that over the last 25 years the two Middle Eastern countries where the U.S. has engaged in military action (Lebanon and Iraq) also happened to be the most "moderate" Islamic countries in the region? Or that the U.S. vacated Lebanon once the Muslims overthrew the Christian government, and vacated Saudi Arabia after 9/11?

[dangus]

Has that been all that happened, I would agree with you. But Cardinals such as Laghi did more than warn President Bush. They helped launched a Jihad against America and our allies, which gravely undermined the perception of the authority authority of the CHurch and led to the election of Godless, anti-Christian radicals in Spain. They preached endlessly on the opinions about politics, without teaching the faithful to discern between their opinions and the authority of the Church, while they neglected their duties to uphold the rights of the unborn and to protect the innocents in their charge.

Meanwhile, the Vatican News Service has directly lied about the statements of the Abp of Baghdad. Whereas he said (paraphrased slightly from memory), "War is always evil, but to do nothing in the face of genocide and terror is a far greater evil." His meaning was crystal clear, for he also called the war the greatest thing to happen to the Middle East since the age of the apostles! Yet Vatican News Service simply claimed he was against the war, simply stating that he had said, "War is always evil."

[Romulus]

When the Vatican has a real government and a military institution - which it dosen't and shouldn't - they maybe Bush should listen to them.

Recycled quips from Joe Stalin -- that's what passes for conservatism in these times.

[Alberta's Child]

We now seem to be conflating terrorism as civil war between Sunni and Shite.

We also have an annoying tendency to delude ourselves into thinking that the U.S. and/or international bodies like the U.N. somehow represent a legitimate form of authority in Iraq, while some guy with an AK-47 and a pile of explosives who has lived in Fallujah all his life is an "insurgent."

[mike182d]

The irony here is that the Vatican was right all along.

With all due respect, how is this reconstruction effort any slower than the German reconstruction effort after WWII? If anything, this has been quicker.

[onyx]

LOL!
Right again, Laz.

[Alberta's Child]

You have to understand that the Vatican is in an impossible quandary here, for it finds itself in a bizarre position where the nations of this world that are most strongly opposed to the moral decay of the West happen to be totalitarian Islamic states. For better or for worse, these countries view the United States as a bitter enemy -- for reasons that have nothing to do with the kind of things that we Americans have been propagandized into believing. Do a search on Henry Kissiner and National Security Study Memorandum 200 to get a better idea of what this is all about.

One of the best-kept secrets of the U.S. in the Middle East goes back to the revolution in Iran in 1979 in which those U.S. Embassy workers were held captive for 444 days. When the Islamic fundamentalists toppled the Shah and overthrew the government, the U.S. Embassy was the second building they stormed in Tehran that day. The first building they sacked was the Tehran headquarters of the International Planned Parenthood Federation.

Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[ZULU]

OH???

And you approve of this misdirected meddling??

[meema]

bump

[mike182d]

"War is always evil, but to do nothing in the face of genocide and terror is a far greater evil."

What's remarkably odd about the Church's stance on war is that it contradicts 1700 years of just war tradition. Contemporary Church leaders presuppose war to be an evil, and then all evidence must justify it. However, this was not always so. Read the writings of Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and the Church clearly states that war is not an inherent evil. Paraphrasing Aquinas, what is evil about war is not the death of men who will die anyway; It is the taking of human life for power, dominance, retribution, hate, et cetera. In other words, what makes a war unjst is the intent, not the war itself. In fact, as sovereign bodies, nations have an obligation to maintain a just civilization and war, as the Church fathers and doctors recognized, is a necessary part of establishing justice.

There are no legitimate, theological grounds on which leaders of the Church today make their case against war.

[TheDon]

More of the legacy media disinformation.

[Alberta's Child]

There are no legitimate, theological grounds on which leaders of the Church today make their case against war.

No, but there are certainly legitimate, theological grounds on which anyone can make their case against this war. The U.S. action in Iraq over the last 15 years has not met even the most basic requirements of the Church's "just war" tradition.

[OXENinFLA]

I'd consider "quick" in this case to be 10-15 years.

[sinkspur]

The U.S. action in Iraq over the last 15 years has not met even the most basic requirements of the Church's "just war" tradition.

You've taken your anti-war stance to an entirely new level by misrepresenting that the Church's "just war" tradition doesn't apply to Iraq. It certainly does.

[roses of sharon]

I was not aware that the US had a surrender agreement being ignored by any other nation than that of Saddam's Iraq. What other Islamic nation's President threatened the US, its people, its President, used WMD, invaded 2 neighbors and threatened more?

I was not aware that Saddam and Sons were considered "moderate" by any stretch. Nor that 25 millions souls in Iraq are suddenly "radical".

Or that the US has a policy of only "invading", and "occupying", "moderate" Islamic countries, supports and creates Islamic cults, and does not support Christians.

Wow, you must work for an Arab conspirazoid channel?

[Alberta's Child]

You'd have to convince me of that. I've made the case that the "just war" principles didn't apply in Iraq in 1990, and don't apply today -- at least from the standpoint of the United States.