TROLL!
Posted on 01/19/2005 5:41:26 AM PST by meandog
> add the idea that UN troops invaded the US to enforce their beliefs.
After the US attacks UN Fort Sumter. Ummm...
> his motives were honorable and just.
THAT is highly debatable. He fought *against* his nation *for* his state... that's kind of a wash. But he fought FOR slavery. That clinches it.
3/5ths was a compromise. The South wanted slaves to be counted as 1 person even though they had no more rights than cattle. If you were going to count slaves as a whole person, you might as well have counted livestock since slaves had pretty much the same legal status.
The South did not want slaves counted out of any sense that slaves were human. They wanted them counted so as to pad the number of Southern members of Congress.
Ouch!
Accurate, but ouch. See the Japanese & Russian histories on WWII
. The "Lost Cause" myth began to take shape immediately after appomatix. Jubal Early was the greatest proprietor of this myth, which had numerous key points among which were the deification of "The Marble Man" Lee, the destruction of Grant & Lincoln, and the obscufication of the cause, slavery.
Bump for later.
The South did not want slaves counted out of any sense that slaves were human. They wanted them counted so as to pad the number of Southern members of Congress.
The exact truth.
Can you document that?
My understanding was that count was dreamed up by Yankees who feared a loss of power should the South count all slaves as the South wanted to. Yankees didn't want slaves counted at all.The three fifth solution was the compromise.
No, the North didn't want the slaves counted under the circumstances. Slaves were property, the southern owner no more considered his slave his equal as he considered is cow his equal. Slaves had no legal standing in southern society, did not vote, had to rights whatsoever. It was sheer hypocrisy on the part of the Southern delegation to insist that slaves count the same as a free person for the purpose of congressional representation. The 3/5th figure was a compromise.
Lee was one of the greatest Napoleanic generals. Unfortunately for him and the South, the Civil War was the first modern war. Napoleanic tactics had become obsolete.
TROLL!
Neo-Confeds love playing with statistics.
Even if we assume for the sake of argument that there were more abolitionist societies South of the Mason Dixon line (which would, of course, include such places as Maryland, Delaware and DC) the relevant question is what percentage of the Southern population actually belonged to such organizations versus the same percentage in the North.
Call me a troll all you want, it still doesn't rebut what I said about Lee being responsible for the deaths of more loyal Americans than anyone except Hitler.
"Happy Birthday General Lee...I am proud to be in the college classroom to teach the truth of that war and American patriots like you."
How DARE you teach the truth when the old lies are so much better. I mean, come on, the old lies are good enough for most people, why not for you too? ;-)
Since the mere mention of abolition in the south could result in one being beaten to death, since the entire Methodist Church split over the issue, it is safe to say we are dealing with what you appropriatly defined as "Neo-confederates" playing with the statistics.
The truth is out. The "old lies" are the Lost cause mythos - spin & revisionism worthy of liberal dems - taught for the first 100 years after the war.
They tend to slink away when you challenge their statistics.
Lee was one of the greatest Napoleanic generals. Unfortunately for him and the South, the Civil War was the first modern war. Napoleanic tactics had become obsolete.
I admire my southern countrymen and women for many things. I am grateful for much of what they have done and continue to do for this nation. I admire much in them that is graceful, honest, polite, hard working, family-oriented, and patriotic.
But this absolute failure to see the reality of a past that is not their fault or their burden, which they nonetheless feel compeled to advance, saddens and confuses me.
Were it not for this willful blindness I would cosider it not a boast to call them the greatest America has to offer in a land of beauty and liberty. More is the pity. My love-hate with the south goes on.
With some time, we could recreate the situation, using the US/UN analogy. It wouldn't be that hard - I'll play with it tonight and see what we can come up with.
It's valuable to do exercises like this to put history into proper perspective. It's not cut-and-dried. It's humans with human emotions and human conflicts, who try as best they can to resolve the conflicts and still live with themselves.
Really? No doubt the following items will be appearing in history books soon: 1) Joan of Arc was a heretic freak who deserved to be burned at the stake.
2) O.J. Simpson was an innocent man unjustly framed for murder by racist cops.
3) America (and FDR) was fully justified in placing Japanese-Americans during WWII
4) Only creationism should be taught in Tennessee public schools (hey guess who the VICTOR in the Scopes Monkey trial was?)
5) The trial of tears? Nothing wrong with that.
6) The Spanish-America war was completely due to the sinking of the battleship Maine in Havana's harbor, and had absolutely nothing to do with Hearst newspapers. (so said the "victors")
7) England should be a Republic. The royals must be removed immediately (you may notice the republicans and NOT the loyalists were the VICTORS during the English civil war, but good luck trying to stir up any popular sentiment to remove the royals now)
8) Western Europe during the Dark Ages was a GREAT period in history, cuz it was so much better after the Roman Empire fell to barbarian horde invaders.
Shall I continue listing additional "victors" that are remember in a NEGATIVE light by history? There are dozens of more examples.
>> (and do notice that only a few whack jobs agree with your assertion) <<<<<
Ironically, most of the "confederate" leaders themselves WERE honorable men who were extremely respectful towards Lincoln, Grant, etc., and praised their leadership skills, then worked to unite this country during reconstruction. It is the NEO confederates who insist on villifying and tearing down others because they can't get over losing a conflict from 160 years ago. Robert E. Lee would greatly disappointed. (oh well, he's from Northern Virgina and therefore a "liberal yankee scalawag" by their standards)
"I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than the dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation."
--Robert E. Lee, January 23, 1861
"Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for perpetual union so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession. Anarchy would have been established, and not a government, by Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, and the other patriots of the Revolution."
—Robert E. Lee, letter, January 23, 1861
"I shall carry with me to the grave the most grateful recollections of your kind consideration, & your name & fame will always be dear to me. Save in the defense of my native State, I never desire again to draw my sword."
--Robert E. Lee to General Winfield Scott
"I have carefully searched the millitary records of both ancient and modern history, and have never found Grant's superior as a general"
--Robert E. Lee
"Both sides forget that we are all Americans. I foresee that our country will pass through a terrible ordeal, a necessary expiation, perhaps, for our national sins."
--Robert E. Lee
"With all my devotion to the Union, and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children and my home."
--Robert E. Lee
"There is a terrible war coming, and these young men who have never seen war cannot wait for it to happen, but I tell you, I wish that I owned every slave in the South, for I would free them all to avoid this war."
--Robert E. Lee
"It is well that war is so terrible--we should grow too fond of it"
- Robert E. Lee gave this observation while watching thousands of Union soldiers sent to the slaughter at Fredericksburg
"I believe it to be the duty of everyone to unite in the restoration of the country and the reestablishment of peace and harmony."
- Robert E. Lee made this statement following the end of hostilities.
"Abandon your animosities and make your sons Americans."
--Robert E. Lee, 1865
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1323474/posts
I can see you gradiated from a little red schoolhouse up north somewhere.AH--YOu are as entitled to your dementia
as JohnKerry is his-I reckon.
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