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hysterical Darwinites panic
crosswalk ^ | 2004 | creationist

Posted on 01/28/2005 4:28:41 PM PST by metacognative

Panicked Evolutionists: The Stephen Meyer Controversy

The theory of evolution is a tottering house of ideological cards that is more about cherished mythology than honest intellectual endeavor. Evolutionists treat their cherished theory like a fragile object of veneration and worship--and so it is. Panic is a sure sign of intellectual insecurity, and evolutionists have every reason to be insecure, for their theory is falling apart.

The latest evidence of this panic comes in a controversy that followed a highly specialized article published in an even more specialized scientific journal. Stephen C. Meyer, Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, wrote an article accepted for publication in Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. The article, entitled "The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories," was published after three independent judges deemed it worthy and ready for publication. The use of such judges is standard operating procedure among "peer-reviewed" academic journals, and is considered the gold standard for academic publication.

The readership for such a journal is incredibly small, and the Biological Society of Washington does not commonly come to the attention of the nation's journalists and the general public. Nevertheless, soon after Dr. Meyer's article appeared, the self-appointed protectors of Darwinism went into full apoplexy. Internet websites and scientific newsletters came alive with outrage and embarrassment, for Dr. Meyer's article suggested that evolution just might not be the best explanation for the development of life forms. The ensuing controversy was greater than might be expected if Dr. Meyer had argued that the world is flat or that hot is cold.

Eugenie C. Scott, Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education, told The Scientist that Dr. Meyer's article came to her attention when members of the Biological Society of Washington contacted her office. "Many members of the society were stunned about the article," she told The Scientist, and she described the article as "recycled material quite common in the intelligent design community." Dr. Scott, a well known and ardent defender of evolutionary theory, called Dr. Meyer's article "substandard science" and argued that the article should never have been published in any scientific journal.

Within days, the Biological Society of Washington, intimidated by the response of the evolutionary defenders, released a statement apologizing for the publication of the article. According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, the society's governing council claimed that the article "was published without the prior knowledge of the council." The statement went on to declare: "We have met and determined that all of us would have deemed this paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings." The society's president, Roy W. McDiarmid, a scientist at the U.S. Geological Survey, blamed the article's publication on the journal's previous editor, Richard Sternberg, who now serves as a fellow at the National Center for Biotechnology Information at the National Institute of Health. "My conclusion on this," McDiarmid said, "was that it was a really bad judgment call on the editor's part."

What is it about Dr. Stephen Meyer's paper that has caused such an uproar? Meyer, who holds a Ph.D. from Cambridge University, argued in his paper that the contemporary form of evolutionary theory now dominant in the academy, known as "Neo-Darwinism," fails to account for the development of higher life forms and the complexity of living organisms. Pointing to what evolutionists identify as the "Cambrian explosion," Meyer argued that "the geologically sudden appearance of many new animal body plans" cannot be accounted for by Darwinian theory, "neo" or otherwise.

Accepting the scientific claim that the Cambrian explosion took place "about 530 million years ago," Meyer went on to explain that the "remarkable jump in the specified complexity or 'complex specified information' [CSI] of the biological world" cannot be explained by evolutionary theory.

The heart of Dr. Meyer's argument is found in this scientifically-loaded passage: "Neo-Darwinism seeks to explain the origin of new information, form, and structure as a result of selection acting on randomly arising variation at a very low level within the biological hierarchy, mainly, within the genetic text. Yet the major morphological innovations depend on a specificity of arrangement at a much higher level of the organizational hierarchy, a level that DNA alone does not determine. Yet if DNA is not wholly responsible for body plan morphogenesis, then DNA sequences can mutate indefinitely, without regard to realistic probabilistic limits, and still not produce a new body plan. Thus, the mechanism of natural selection acting on random mutations in DNA cannot in principle generate novel body plans, including those that first arose in the Cambrian explosion."

In simpler terms, the mechanism of natural selection, central to evolutionary theory, cannot possibly account for the development of so many varied and complex life forms simply by mutations in DNA. Rather, some conscious design--thus requiring a Designer--is necessary to explain the emergence of these life forms.

In the remainder of his paper, Meyer attacks the intellectual inadequacies of evolutionary theory and argues for what is now known as the "design Hypothesis." As he argued, "Conscious and rational agents have, as a part of their powers of purposive intelligence, the capacity to design information-rich parts and to organize those parts into functional information-rich systems and hierarchies." As he went on to assert, "We know of no other causal entity or process that has this capacity." In other words, the development of the multitude of higher life forms found on the planet can be explained only by the guidance of a rational agent--a Designer--whose plan is evident in the design.

Meyer's article was enough to cause hysteria in the evolutionists' camp. Knowing that their theory lacks intellectual credibility, the evolutionists respond by raising the volume, offering the equivalent of scientific shrieks and screams whenever their cherished theory is criticized--much less in one of their own cherished journals. As Dr. John West, Associate Director of the Discovery Institute explained, "Instead of addressing the paper's argument or inviting counterarguments or rebuttal, the society has resorted to affirming what amounts to a doctrinal statement in an effort to stifle scientific debate. They're trying to stop scientific discussion before it even starts."

When the Biological Society of Washington issued its embarrassing apology for publishing the paper, the organization pledged that arguments for Intelligent Design "will not be addressed in future issues of the Proceedings," regardless of whether the paper passes peer review.

From the perspective of panicked evolutionists, the Intelligent Design movement represents a formidable adversary and a constant irritant. The defenders of Intelligent Design are undermining evolutionary theory at multiple levels, and they refuse to go away. The panicked evolutionists respond with name-calling, labeling Intelligent Design proponents as "creationists," thereby hoping to prevent any scientific debate before it starts.

Intelligent Design is not tantamount to the biblical doctrine of creation. Theologically, Intelligent Design falls far short of requiring any affirmation of the doctrine of creation as revealed in the Bible. Nevertheless, it is a useful and important intellectual tool, and a scientific movement with great promise. The real significance of Intelligent Design theory and its related movement is the success with which it undermines the materialistic and naturalistic worldview central to the theory of evolution.

For the Christian believer, the Bible presents the compelling and authoritative case for God's creation of the cosmos. Specifically, the Bible provides us with the ultimate truth concerning human origins and the special creation of human beings as the creatures made in God's own image. Thus, though we believe in more than Intelligent Design, we certainly do not believe in less. We should celebrate the confusion and consternation now so evident among the evolutionists. Dr. Stephen Meyer's article--and the controversy it has spawned--has caught evolutionary scientists with their intellectual pants down.

_______________________________________

R. Albert Mohler, Jr


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bablefish; crackpottery; crevolist; darwinuts; darwinuttery; design; dontpanic; evolution; flatearthers; graspingatstraws; hyperbolic; idiocy; ignorance; intelligent; laughingstock; purpleprose; sciencehaters; sillydarwinalchemy; stephenmeyer; superstition; unscientific; yourepanickingnotme
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To: 2AtHomeMom
WildTurkey implicitly accepted the equation.

No. I pointed out that you used the "reversible cycle" equation which is exactly what is being pointed out to you with the subscript "rev".

You stated that the entropy change had to be non-negative thus implying a positive entropy change (come now, wasn't that the crux of you argument?) when in fact the delta entroy is required to equal ZERO.

661 posted on 01/30/2005 4:19:11 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: mississippi red-neck
Proof that what I said was true about the lynch mob mentality of some of those in the scientific community who try to attack and destroy the character and credibility of those who would challenge one of their pet theories.

Well their credibility is destroy by their false propaganda and fake science and thus they destroy their own character. Not our fault.

662 posted on 01/30/2005 4:20:35 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: mississippi red-neck

Hey, the guy lied. He destroyed his own character.


663 posted on 01/30/2005 4:21:40 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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Placemarker


664 posted on 01/30/2005 4:28:26 PM PST by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: Ichneumon

That you are not intelligently designed. After all I did call you an "unevolved swine". By implying evolution.that would deny intelligent design -- at least by your understanding, eh?


665 posted on 01/30/2005 4:40:13 PM PST by bvw
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To: Ichneumon
"Common sense" says the the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it

Common sense has never said that. Stand on any high point you can only see so far -- common sense that the earth is not flat. And the concept of Sun centric orbit predates Copernicus by centuries and centuries.

What caused the such silly wrong views to be upheld for generations, even when common sense spoke against them? Orthodoxy. Canonical thinking. A jealous priesthood of philosophy.

You are not Galileo, you are like the Holy Church that prosecuted him -- sentenced him to death at one point, iirc.

666 posted on 01/30/2005 4:50:22 PM PST by bvw
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To: Right Wing Professor
This is all I could find…
I love the King James Version of the Bible. My own spirit recoils from a God Who is He or She in the same way my heart sinks when I see a lion pacing neurotically back and forth in a small zoo cage. I know, I know, the lion is beautiful but dangerous; if you let the lion roam free, it would kill me; safety demands that it be put in a cage. Safety demands that religions be put in cages, too--when absolutely necessary.
(Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life, 1995)

FWIW…
667 posted on 01/30/2005 5:34:53 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: DoctorMichael
I've never liked that GOLD site. Too many broken links. Ostensibly it should be a good resource, though.

NCBI ftp site is practical

ftp://ftp.ncbi.nih.gov/genomes/

668 posted on 01/30/2005 5:41:26 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: Right Wing Professor; metacognative; PatrickHenry; bvw; js1138; 2AtHomeMom; grey_whiskers; ...
That's some third party discussing Dennett. Is he as big a liar as you? You said that Dennett called for creationist concentration camps. Still waiting for some corroboration.

Yes, metacognative's source is a liar too, as is metacognative himself, since he expanded on the slander even further than the source did.

Dennett was actually talking about Islamofascists and the like when he wrote that passage, not Christian "creationists" as metacognative falsely charged (but refuses to retract), *AND* you'll find that Dennett's actual words have been hacked badly out of context, specifically in order to dishonestly hide what he was *actually* talking about. Creationists use dishonestly altered quotes to lie about things? Wow, what a "surprise". Not.

Here are Dennett's *actual* words (note, a "meme" is a set of beliefs):

"We preach freedom of religion, but only so far. If your religion advocates slavery, or mutilation of women, or infanticide, or puts a price on Salman Rushdie's head because he has insulted it, then your religion has a feature that cannot be respected. It endangers us all.

It is nice to have grizzly bears and wolves living in the wild. They are no longer a menace; we can peacefully coexist, with a little wisdom. The same policy can be discerned in our political tolerance, in religious freedom. You are free to preserve or create any religious creed you wish, so long as it does not become a public menace. We're all on the Earth together, and we have to learn some accommodation. [Example of harmless Hutterite sect snipped.] Other religious memes are not so benign. The message is clear: those who will not accommodate, who will not temper, who insist on keeping only the purest and wildest strain of their heritage alive, we will be obliged, reluctantly, to cage or disarm, and we will do our best to disable the memes they fight for. Slavery is beyond the pale. Child abuse is beyond the pale. Discrimination is beyond the pale. The pronouncing of death sentences on those who blaspheme against a religion (complete with bounties or rewards for those who carry them out) is beyond the pale. It is not civilized, and it is owed no more respect in the name of religious freedom than any other incitement to cold-blooded murder. [1]"

[and then Dennett's referenced footnote 1 reads:]

1. Many, many Muslims agree, and we must not only listen to them, but do what we can to protect and support them, for they are bravely trying, from the inside, to reshape the tradition they cherish into something better, something ethically defensible. That is -- or rather ought to be -- the message of multiculturalism, not he patronizing and subtly racist hypertolerance that "respects" vicious and ignorant doctrines when they are propounded by officials of non-European states and religions. One might start by spreading the word about For Rushdie (Braziller, 1994), a collection of essays by Arab and Muslim writers, many critical of Rushdie, but all denouncing the unspeakably immoral "fatwa" death sentence proclaimed by the Ayatollah. Rushdie (1994) has drawn our attention to 162 Iranian intellectuals who, with great courage, have signed a declaration in support of freedom of expression. Let us all distribute the danger by joining hands with them.

-- Daniel Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life, pp. 516-517

Metacognative, WHAT IN THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU??

What is wrong with your morality and your mentality that you could shamelessly make such a transparently false, horrifying claim against someone just because you don't like that they support evolution?

You have taken a man's clear statement against Islamofacism's violence -- and his observation that rather than "accept" it through misguided "multiculturalism", it'll need to be contained, disarmed, and/or re-educated -- and you have TWISTED this sensible passage (which would be right at home here on FreeRepublic) and falsely pretended that it's actually saying that Dennett "wants creationist concentration camps" and "Creationist parents should be fenced off". Have you no *shame*?

And your "source" is a liar as well, as anyone can see if they compare the *butchered* version of the above passage presented by "Stephen E. Jones" on this page, along with Jones's *FALSE* description of it. And it should at this point come as no surprise that Jones is (drum roll please) an anti-evolutionary creationist:

My name is Stephen E. (Steve) Jones. I am in my late fifties, married with two adult children, and have recently completed a biology degree. I am an evangelical Christian and a member of Warwick Church of Christ (in a suburb of Perth, Western Australia). Since 1994 my main interest has been debating Creation/Evolution on the Internet. [...] I moderate two Internet discussion groups: CreationEvolutionDesign and ProblemsOfEvolution
This is, sadly, typical of the sort of dishonest slander and twisting of facts that I see anti-evolutionists doing on a *daily* basis. And then when they're called on the carpet for it, they demonstrate no shame whatsoever -- incredibly they often keep asserting that they've done nothing wrong and that their claim is still valid.

Frankly, your shameless ability to lie and slander disgusts me.

(And speaking of getting "hysterical", this sort of "the evolutionists are out to get us" paranoid (and FALSE) crap from the anti-evolutionists is far more common, and far more shrill, than *anything* you'll ever see from the pro-evolution camp.)

Now a question for others on the thread -- do you abhor, or do you excuse metacognative's false slander? This question is especially directed to those who are either in the anti-evolution camp themselves, or who have whined about how it's allegedly the pro-evolutionists who are the dishonest and/or namecalling ones. (Somehow I predict a rush to the exits or excuses about why registering an opinion is unnecessary when an anti-evolutionist engages in smear tactics...)

669 posted on 01/30/2005 5:43:44 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: DoctorMichael; Right Wing Professor
251 complete

Yeah. Most bacteria.

How many species are there?

670 posted on 01/30/2005 5:44:00 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: bvw
What caused the such silly wrong views to be upheld for generations, even when common sense spoke against them? Orthodoxy. Canonical thinking. A jealous priesthood of philosophy.

It might have been the thinking of men in the church who taught that the earth was flat but it was not the word of God.

Isa 40:22 Appox.754 BC.

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in

671 posted on 01/30/2005 5:45:22 PM PST by mississippi red-neck
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To: Heartlander
Why quote out of context when the context is available to anyone?

Shame on Rea

Michael Rea charges that Richard Dawkins and I “aren’t the least bit interested in mutual respect.” and are in fact guilty of the intolerance we deplore in religious people. Not so. Neither Dawkins nor I believe in God, but whereas Dawkins is convinced that belief in God, and religion in general, does far more harm than good, I have not yet made up my mind about that. I can see that a lot of good comes from believing in God, and it might still outweigh all the harm. I’m looking into this difficult question.

It is an empirical question, in spite of all the variability in values that makes it hard to judge, but some of the goods and harms are clear enough to anyone. For instance, one of the manifest harms caused by religious belief is the way it can sometimes lure an otherwise honest and intelligent, even scholarly, person into shameful misrepresentations of the truth in defense of their creed.

Michael Rea says:

But Dennett has gone on record . . . as thinking that this sort of religious view [creationism] ought simply to be confined to a ‘cultural zoo’. ‘Save the Baptists!’ he says, ‘but not by all means. Not if it means tolerating the deliberate misinforming of children about the natural world.

Rea draws these quotations out of context from my rather careful defense of religious toleration. What I was trying to establish in those closing pages of Darwin’s Dangerous Idea was the delicacy and difficulty of balancing the widest acceptable toleration of religious freedom, which I advocate, with the need for public safety in the face of dangerous fanaticisms–this some years before September 11, 2001.

I expressly contrasted fanaticism, which must indeed be caged, as we all now recognize (don’t we?), with the benign or at least less malignant forms of religious belief. And I lamented the fate of those waning religious traditions that are kept alive by anthropologists as mere cultural artifacts, “in cultural zoos.” I invite you to read the passages from which Rea has drawn his quotations and ask yourself what, if anything, you find intolerant in them. You may disagree with me about particular cases–female circumcision or sacrifice of animals, for instance--but you surely agree with me that we have to draw the line somewhere: no human sacrifices--no fatwas--deserve the protection of religious toleration. Right? Then ask yourself if Rea owes me, and his readers, an apology for letting his faith distort his integrity on this occasion.

from Darwin’s Dangerous Idea:

But hasn't there been a tremendous rebirth of fundamentalist faith in all these creeds? Yes, unfortunately, there has been, and I think that there are no forces on this planet more dangerous to us all than the fanaticisms of fundamentalism, of all the species: Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, as well as countless smaller infections. Is there a conflict between science and religion here? There most certainly is.

Darwin's dangerous idea helps to create a condition in the memosphere that in the long run threatens to be just as toxic to these memes as civilization in general has been toxic to the large wild mammals. Save the Elephants! Yes, of course, but not by all means. Not by forcing the people of Africa to live nineteenth-century lives, for instance. This is not an idle comparison. The creation of the great wildlife preserves in Africa has often been accompanied by the dislocation--and ultimate destruction--of human populations. (For a chilling vision of this side-effect, see Colin Turnbull, 1972, on the fate of the Ik.) Those who think that we should preserve the elephants' pristine environment at all costs should contemplate the costs of returning the United States to the pristine conditions in which the buffalos roam and the deer and the antelope play. We must find an accommodation.

I love the King James Version of the Bible. My own spirit rebels from a God who is He or She in the same way my heart sinks when I see a lion pacing neurotically back and forth in a small zoo cage. I know, I know, the lion is beautiful but dangerous; if you let the lion roam free, it would kill me; safety demands that it be put in a cage. Safety demands that religions be put in cages too--when absolutely necessary. We just can't have female circumcision and the second-class status of women in Roman Catholicism and Mormonism, to say nothing of their status in Islam. The recent Supreme Court ruling declaring unconstitutional the Florida law prohibiting the sacrificing of animals in the rituals of the Santeria sect (an Afro-Caribbean religion incorporating elements of Yoruba traditions and Roman Catholicism) is a borderline case, at least for many of us. Such rituals are offensive to many, but the protective mantle of religious tradition secures our tolerance. We are wise to respect these traditions. It is, after all, just part of respect for the biosphere.

Save the Baptists! Yes, of course, but not by all means. Not if it means tolerating the deliberate misinforming of children about the natural world. According to a recent poll, 48% of the people in the United States today believe that the book of Genesis is literally true. And 70% believe that "creation science" should be taught in school alongside evolution. Some recent writers recommend a policy in which parents would be able to "opt out" of materials they didn't want their children taught. Should evolution be taught in the schools? Should arithmetic be taught? Should history? Misinforming a child is a terrible offense.

A faith, like a species, must evolve or go extinct when the environment changes. It is not a gentle process in either case. We see in every Christian subspecies the battle of memes--should women be ordained? should we go back to the Latin liturgy?--and the same can also be observed in the varieties of Judaism and Islam. We must have a similar mixture of respect and self-protective caution about memes. This is already accepted practice, but we tend to avert our attention from its implications. We preach freedom of religion, but only so far. If your religion advocates slavery, or mutilation of women, or infanticide, or puts a price on Salman Rushdie's head because he has insulted it, then your religion has a feature that cannot be respected. It endangers us all.

It is nice to have grizzly bears and wolves living in the wild. They are no longer a menace; we can peacefully coexist, with a little wisdom. The same policy can be discerned in our political tolerance, in religious freedom. You are free to preserve or create any religious creed you wish, so long as it does not become a public menace. We're all on the Earth together, and we have to learn some accommodation

. . . If you want to teach your children that they are the tools of God, you had better not teach them that they are God's rifles, or we will have to stand firmly opposed to you: your doctrine has no glory, no special rights, no intrinsic and inalienable merit. If you insist on teaching your children falsehoods--that the Earth is flat, that Man is not a product of evolution by natural selection--then you must expect, at the very least, that those of us who have freedom of speech will feel free to describe your teachings as the spreading of falsehoods, and will attempt to demonstrate this to your children at our earliest opportunity. Our future well-being--the well-being of all of us on the planet--depends on the education of our descendants.

What then of all the glories of our religious traditions? They should certainly be preserved, as should the languages, the art, the costumes, the rituals, the monuments. Zoos are now more and more being seen as second-class havens for endangered species, but at least they are havens, and what they preserve is irreplaceable. The same is true of complex memes and their phenotypic expressions. Many a fine New England church, costly to maintain, is in danger of destruction. Shall we deconsecrate these churches, and turn them into museums, or retrofit them for some other use? The latter fate is at least to be preferred to their destruction. Many congregations face a cruel choice: their house of worship costs so much to maintain in all its splendor that little of their tithing is left over for the poor. The Catholic Church has faced this problem for centuries, and has maintained a position that is, I think, defensible, but not obviously so: when it spends its treasure to put gold plating on the candlesticks, instead of providing more food and better shelter for the poor of the parish, it has a different vision of what makes life worth living. Our people, it says, benefit more from having a place of splendor in which to worship than from a little more food. Any atheist or agnostic who finds this cost-benefit analysis ludicrous might pause to consider whether to support diverting all charitable and governmental support for museums, symphony orchestras, libraries and scientific laboratories to efforts to provide more food and better living conditions for the least well off. A human life worth living is not something that can be uncontroversially measured, and that is its glory.

And there's the rub. What will happen, one may well wonder, if religion is preserved in cultural zoos, in libraries, in concerts and demonstrations? It is happening; the tourists flock to watch the Native American tribal dances, and for the onlookers, it is folklore, a religious ceremony to be sure, to be treated with respect, but also an example of a meme-complex on the verge of extinction, at least in its strong, ambulatory phase; it has become an invalid, barely kept alive by its custodians. (from pp515-20)

So was I advocating that creationists be put into zoos? Rea is not alone in making these particular charges, and I have chastised some of his colleagues who have done it before him. They are apparently incorrigible on this matter. They just can’t resist misrepresenting me for the good of the cause. This is an interesting datum, a small measure of the corrosive fear that can infect otherwise sound minds.

Is teaching creationism to a young child as evil as teaching them that, say, Jews–or Palestinians--are subhuman? No, but it is still the teaching of a blatant falsehood to an unsuspecting young mind. When these children grow up, in this Age of the Gene, they will want to know why you lied to them, why you hid the glories of evolutionary biology from them. Do you want to risk the credibility of your whole religious tradition by tethering it to a lie? I agree with Dawkins that “it is absolutely safe to say that if you meet someone who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked). . .” I think that it is particularly wicked to impose this ignorance on tender young minds. But I don’t advocate putting those who do it in cages or zoos. I advocate the much gentler course of trying to bring them to their senses by exposing their misrepresentations in public. I’m for telling the truth and letting people decide for themselves.


672 posted on 01/30/2005 5:48:59 PM PST by js1138
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To: Ichneumon
You call m-c a liar? With what proof?

That last post of yours is no proof. It could have a mistake on m-c's part. You make more of it than it is possible for you to know! That *is* slander. Slander does not serve the cause of science, does it?

673 posted on 01/30/2005 5:50:04 PM PST by bvw
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To: Ichneumon
(Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life, 1995)
FWIW…
674 posted on 01/30/2005 5:51:17 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: bvw
For a "slur" YOU ask a withdrawal?

No, I asked for support *OR* a retraction. If the slur can be supported, then it stands. Try to work on your reading comprehension. And stop pestering me with your misunderstandings.

Look to you own made against others.

What about them? If I've failed to support any of them -- and I usually do support them -- I'll be glad to support them in detail if you point out my oversights. I don't make derogatory comments that I can't support. So yes, please, help me locate the one or two I may not have substantiated, and I'll be *glad* to document exactly why I was justified in calling someone a liar, a fool, etc.

You employ two modes of attack synchoronously -- doc dump and slur.

Both of which are appropriate when the shoe fits. And you sort of "forgot" to mention that I also use the "mode" of providing facts, evidence, citations, and logical arguments. Why do you misrepresent my posts?

675 posted on 01/30/2005 5:51:19 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: WildTurkey
The origins of quantum mechanics lies with Bohr's hydrogen model. Now, we all know that electrons do not travel in 2-D circles. Evolutionary theory is still incomplete but so were a lot of other "hard" theories such as Newton's law of gravitation.

That's right. This is pretty much my point.

I remember in Feynman's first book he wrote how he saw a seminar about a mathematical analysis that the spin state of something is one. Feynman wrote how it was a great talk and convincing -- the spin state must be one.

But, someone piped up and stated: the spin is three, they measured it.

There is no equivalent yet in evolutionary biology now to such an authoritative physical answer to a question and itchy's analogy is hot air.

With the completion of more and more genome sequences there may come a time when there will be the equivalent of "the spin is three -- they measured it". But right now, no.

676 posted on 01/30/2005 5:51:24 PM PST by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: js1138

Oh yeah, that is much better…


677 posted on 01/30/2005 5:53:24 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: mississippi red-neck

Just to be clear -- you are suggesting that Isiah's words of so many year ago ('BC' ... in this case before Copernicus) "circle of the Earth" imply the earth is an orb, right?


678 posted on 01/30/2005 5:54:24 PM PST by bvw
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To: metacognative
They know enough common sense to see that water doesn't run uphill and neither does evolution

I for one have never claimed that evolution runs up hill, or that water originate species.

679 posted on 01/30/2005 5:55:57 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Ichneumon
Now a question for others on the thread -- do you abhor, or do you excuse metacognative's false slander?

I'd be astonished if a single creationist spoke up and did the honorable thing in this situation. Astonished and delighted. I've been in these threads a long time, and the odds against a hard-core creationist doing the right thing -- when it's so blindingly obvious what it is -- are ... well, it's as unlikely as the odds we're given in those goofy posts we see about the odds against evolution. The difference is I've got experience with these people, so I'm basing my prediction on that. I wish one of them would surprise me.

680 posted on 01/30/2005 5:56:03 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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