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“The White Man’s Burden”: Kipling’s Hymn to U.S. Imperialism
George Mason University ^ | 02/01/1899 | Rudyard Kipling

Posted on 02/05/2005 5:37:04 PM PST by NMC EXP

In February 1899, British novelist and poet Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem entitled “The White Man’s Burden: The United States and The Philippine Islands.” In this poem, Kipling urged the U.S. to take up the “burden” of empire, as had Britain and other European nations. Published in the February, 1899 issue of McClure’s Magazine, the poem coincided with the beginning of the Philippine-American War and U.S. Senate ratification of the treaty that placed Puerto Rico, Guam, Cuba, and the Philippines under American control.

Theodore Roosevelt, soon to become vice-president and then president, copied the poem and sent it to his friend, Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, commenting that it was “rather poor poetry, but good sense from the expansion point of view.” Not everyone was as favorably impressed as Roosevelt. The racialized notion of the “White Man’s burden” became a euphemism for imperialism, and many anti-imperialists couched their opposition in reaction to the phrase.

Take up the White Man’s burden—

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

To wait in heavy harness

On fluttered folk and wild—

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half devil and half child

Take up the White Man’s burden

In patience to abide

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple

An hundred times made plain

To seek another’s profit

And work another’s gain

Take up the White Man’s burden—

And reap his old reward:

The blame of those ye better

The hate of those ye guard—

The cry of hosts ye humour

(Ah slowly) to the light:

"Why brought ye us from bondage,

“Our loved Egyptian night?”

Take up the White Man’s burden-

Have done with childish days-

The lightly proffered laurel,

The easy, ungrudged praise.

Comes now, to search your manhood

Through all the thankless years,

Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,

The judgment of your peers!

Source: Rudyard Kipling, “The White Man’s Burden: The United States & The Philippine Islands, 1899.” Rudyard Kipling’s Verse: Definitive Edition (Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1929).


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: empire; imperialism; iraq; kipling; whitemansburden
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I think of this poen every time I hear of US troops fighting and dying in Iraq.
1 posted on 02/05/2005 5:37:05 PM PST by NMC EXP
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To: NMC EXP

Thank you so much for posting this---

you are correct, it does conjure up thought of our troops--it sounds like it could have been written by one of them!!


2 posted on 02/05/2005 5:41:33 PM PST by Txsleuth (Proud to be a Texan)
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To: NMC EXP

BTTT


3 posted on 02/05/2005 5:42:16 PM PST by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: Txsleuth

You are welcome.


4 posted on 02/05/2005 5:44:03 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: NMC EXP
I don't quite think of Mr. Kipling.

What I think of is how noble the U.S.A is to tell the world with it's head stuck in the sand to get out of the way so that tyranny can be destroyed.

The U.N. worked with Saddam for OIL MONEY and helped keep his people down. We ended it. I don't need the congratulations of thugs, murderers, and U.S. haters. All I need is the Iraqi citizenry to be free and have a future.

We do not go for profit, we go at a cost. We do not rule or exploit, we throw down sadists.

Freedom is a real bitch to some folks, eh? If only those people would accept the yoke!

I spit on that assumption and I spit on your comparison.

Arioch7 out!

5 posted on 02/05/2005 5:45:18 PM PST by Arioch7
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To: NMC EXP
"We've taken up Mr. Kipling's burden

For People Black and Brown

Now will you tell us Mr. Kipling

How to put them down?"

--- U.S. Marines on Mindanao

6 posted on 02/05/2005 5:45:18 PM PST by Clemenza (I Am Here to Chew Bubblegum and Kick Ass, and I'm ALL OUT OF BUBBLEGUM!)
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To: Arioch7
My apoligies.

I misunderstood and stand corrected. I drink to much, LOL!

Arioch7 out.

7 posted on 02/05/2005 5:46:50 PM PST by Arioch7
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To: NMC EXP
I think of this poen every time I hear of US troops fighting and dying in Iraq.

Yeah, and what about our troops in WWII? Everyone knows that there is no way that democracy could take root in Germany and Japan. They died in vain.

8 posted on 02/05/2005 5:47:15 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: NMC EXP

Kipling wrote against the backdrop of the experience of the British Empire, around the globe. He knew whereof he spoke, but as they used to say, "circumstances alter cases."

Our purpose, and therefore the application of our strengths, are different from those of the mercantile imperialists. Our goals are to free the people and leave, not to stay and run things. It makes all the difference.


9 posted on 02/05/2005 5:51:09 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: NMC EXP

American imperialism? What a lie, Kipling died in 1936, and had been writing about British foreign wars. Read his "Recessional" and get a clue.


10 posted on 02/05/2005 5:52:22 PM PST by xJones
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To: NMC EXP

DO YOU LIKE KIPLING?

I DON'T KNOW, I'VE NEVER KIPPLED.


11 posted on 02/05/2005 5:54:40 PM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: Arioch7
Freedom is a real bitch to some folks, eh? If only those people would accept the yoke!

Maybe you actually did read the poem and are referring to this part:

Take up the White Man’s burden—

And reap his old reward:

The blame of those ye better

The hate of those ye guard—

The cry of hosts ye humour

(Ah slowly) to the light:

"Why brought ye us from bondage,

“Our loved Egyptian night?”

If you do not understand the meaning I can translate it into 6th grade public school language for you.

All I need is the Iraqi citizenry to be free and have a future.

Why?

We do not go for profit, we go at a cost. We do not rule or exploit, we throw down sadists.

Gee....and all this time I thought we were there to prevent "the smoking gun from being a mushroom cloud over NYC".

I spit on your comparison.

When you grow up and can mind your manners you are invited to come back and converse with the adults.

12 posted on 02/05/2005 5:57:55 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: hinckley buzzard

I think Zarqawi helped reinforce the points made the last time he spoke when he tried to keep the Iraqis from voting---he was telling them how much he hates democracy and so should they--

He was making the point--that freedom and democracy is whats feard, not American imperialism. He didn't rant and rave about too many McDonalds or even Halliburton--it was freedom, the one thing that America wants to give to Iraqis and has even sent the best to deliver---woe to them if they don't accept and fight to keep it!


13 posted on 02/05/2005 5:58:01 PM PST by Txsleuth (Proud to be a Texan)
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To: NMC EXP

I am a fan of Kipling's writing but this isn't the same as British colonialism.


14 posted on 02/05/2005 5:59:58 PM PST by cyborg (Department of Homelife Security threat level is GREEN.)
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To: dirtboy

You are not actually going to try to compare WW2 and Iraq are you?

Rhetorical question of course.


15 posted on 02/05/2005 6:00:07 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: NMC EXP
You left off a key couplet from the original:

Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

And my point is, critics of the war say democracy cannot be brought to Iraq because they have no history of such. However, there also was no history of democracy in Japan and precious little in Germany. But we managed to establish both because of military action.

But you are correct - there is no comparison between WWII and Iraq. We lost far, far more soldiers in a single battle than we lost in all of the Iraq war.

16 posted on 02/05/2005 6:03:56 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: xJones
American imperialism? What a lie, Kipling died in 1936, and had been writing about British foreign wars. Read his "Recessional" and get a clue.

The comments preceding the poem are from the George Mason University "History Matters" website. I suggest you take up your complaint with the GMU history department.

Get a clue, huh?

You are not only clueless, you do not even have a suspicion.

Learn some manners.

17 posted on 02/05/2005 6:04:31 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: hinckley buzzard

Interesting to see the reactions from all of the pro iraqi war types.

Take Imperialism out of the equation and read the poem again.

Read it from the viewpoint of the grunt and his interactions with a foreign citizenry whose opinion of his being there ranges from lukewarm to flat homicidal.


19 posted on 02/05/2005 6:07:45 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: NMC EXP
Interesting to see the reactions from all of the pro iraqi war types. Take Imperialism out of the equation and read the poem again. Read it from the viewpoint of the grunt and his interactions with a foreign citizenry whose opinion of his being there ranges from lukewarm to flat homicidal.

Most of what I have read from the grunts is anger at the way the war is portrayed by the media.

20 posted on 02/05/2005 6:08:59 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: NMC EXP
OK. You do know that I retracted my post right?

So, how adult is it to read something that has been retracted and then proceed to slam someone for something that they have already apoligized for?

I will try to rise above my sixth grade comprehension for moment. Curious that you take such offense to my using the word *spit* and then proceed to call me an idiot. It's obvious I never did anything of the sort to you, so I am amused.

Perhaps my dumb self does not know how to apoligize correctly. No, I re-read it. I apoligized. I will not call you dumb but I WILL spit on your last post to me. So to spit on your posts is immature so you will call me a sixth grader.

Seriously, you can see the irony in this, can't you?

Arioch out.

21 posted on 02/05/2005 6:09:49 PM PST by Arioch7
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To: dirtboy

Is that the only couplet left off? Where does it belong in the poem?

I copied the poem because I liked it so much and I would like to have it all, and in the correct order---

I love threads like this on a slow news night because it really makes one think and can garner a good conversation, I hope!!


22 posted on 02/05/2005 6:12:24 PM PST by Txsleuth (Proud to be a Texan)
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To: dirtboy

And you are correct about that couplet.

I need to go back to the GMU site and determine if it was a cut and paste error on my part or a deletion on theirs.

As to my reason for posting this article it was not about imperialism. It was about How it must feel to be a troop over there idealisticaly believing you are doing the right thing and getting blown away as a reward.

As to your comments re: spreading democracy, that ain't why we are there but I would rather not get into that on this thread.


23 posted on 02/05/2005 6:13:34 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: John_Wheatley

Well true if British colonialism didn't happen there wouldn't be an America, and I wouldn't exist either for that matter. However, the colonists didn't always adhere to their own ideals. I could talk about this for a while as it is a topics I'm fascinated with. All in all it was good, but America is letting the people participate more in their own destiny, not something England was really good at doing, in Africa or Rudyard Kipling's India.


24 posted on 02/05/2005 6:14:03 PM PST by cyborg (Department of Homelife Security threat level is GREEN.)
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To: NMC EXP
Theodore Roosevelt...copied the poem and sent it to his friend, Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, commenting that it was “rather poor poetry, but good sense from the expansion point of view.”

Good on ya, TR! Only a man of your "chutzpah" would declare Rudyard Kipling to be a "marginal" poet.

I love it!

25 posted on 02/05/2005 6:15:49 PM PST by ihatemyalarmclock
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To: Txsleuth

After reading the post #21, maybe my suggestion that there might by "good conversation" is just a little wrong---

I think we have a case of posts posted before other posts got a chance to be seen---kinda like playing phone tag!! hehe


26 posted on 02/05/2005 6:18:21 PM PST by Txsleuth (Proud to be a Texan)
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To: NMC EXP
It was about How it must feel to be a troop over there idealisticaly believing you are doing the right thing and getting blown away as a reward.

And that is why I brought in the missing couplet. Once again:

Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Do you consider the recent elections to be sloth and heathen folly? The Iraqi people came out to vote in greater percentages than in this country, in the face of death threats. They had every reason after the intial invasion to question our resolve, given the fact that we hung them out to dry after the first Gulf War.

So you can question whether it was all worth it. But the Iraqis have hardly let us down for our troubles.

27 posted on 02/05/2005 6:19:49 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: Txsleuth
Is that the only couplet left off? Where does it belong in the poem?

I'll see if I can get the proper version. IMO I mentioned it because it was the thesis of this poem, and no discussion of the relevance of this poem to Iraq would be complete without it.

28 posted on 02/05/2005 6:21:18 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: Txsleuth
This is the complete, non-Readers Digest version of the poem:

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke (1) your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel, (2)
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

29 posted on 02/05/2005 6:25:24 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: dirtboy; Txsleuth

This version is from:

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5478/


30 posted on 02/05/2005 6:27:12 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: NMC EXP
I need to go back to the GMU site and determine if it was a cut and paste error on my part or a deletion on theirs.

The fault is theirs, not yours.

31 posted on 02/05/2005 6:27:58 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: NMC EXP

That's pretty low on their part. Seems like GMU removed the precautionary couplets of Kipling's poem to try and make it into some rabid imperialistic rant.


32 posted on 02/05/2005 6:29:03 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Arioch7
OK. You do know that I retracted my post right?

No I do not know that. You posted a message to yourself which I ignored before making my reply to you which was given in the spirit and tone of your original post to me.

Sounds like a misunderstanding compounded by a mistake.

I suggest we forget the whole matter.

34 posted on 02/05/2005 6:31:44 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: dirtboy

I understand why you brought up the missing couplet--it is important to the poem---

I am not critisizing NMC EXP, it may have been left out of the poem he copied onto FR.

Like I said, I just want to be able to have the full poem--

I may be wrong, but I can really picture the War in Iraq, with the frustrations, and ambivalence by some. But, I feel pride when I read it because I know that while some say that only reason we went or SHOULD have gone, was because of WMDs, ultimately the gift of freedom is what makes "sending the sons to exile" noble, in, and of itself.


35 posted on 02/05/2005 6:31:56 PM PST by Txsleuth (Proud to be a Texan)
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To: ihatemyalarmclock
Teddy and Ruddy had a fairly long-running although good-humored feud.

You can read about it in Kipling's autobiographical Something of Myself.

Now John Hay, one of the very few American Ambassadors to England with two sides to their heads, had his summer house a few hours north by rail from us. On a visit to him, we discussed the matter. His explanation was convincing. I quote the words which stayed textually in my memory. ‘America’s hatred of England is the hoop round the forty-four (as they were then) staves of the Union.’ He said it was the only standard possible to apply to an enormously variegated population. ‘So—when a man comes up out of the sea, we say to him; “See that big bully over there in the East? He’s England! Hate him, and you’re a good American.”’

But how thoroughly the doctrine was exploited I did not realise till we visited Washington in ’95, where I met Theodore Roosevelt, then UnderSecretary (I never caught the name of the Upper) to the U.S. Navy. I liked him from the first and largely believed in him. He would come to our hotel, and thank God in a loud voice that he had not one drop of British blood in him; his ancestry being Dutch, and his creed conforming-Dopper, I think it is called. Naturally I told him nice tales about his Uncles and Aunts in South Africa—only I called them Ooms and Tanties—who esteemed themselves the sole lawful Dutch under the canopy and dismissed Roosevelt’s stock for ‘Verdomder Hollanders.’ Then he became really eloquent, and we would go off to the Zoo together, where he talked about grizzlies that he had met. It was laid on him, at that time, to furnish his land with an adequate Navy; the existing collection of unrelated types and casual purchases being worn out. I asked him how he proposed to get it, for the American people did not love taxation. ‘Out of you,’ was the disarming reply. And so —to some extent — it was. The obedient and instructed Press explained how England — treacherous and jealous as ever —only waited round the corner to descend on the unprotected coasts of Liberty, and to that end was preparing, etc. etc. etc. (This in ’95 when England had more than enough hay on her own trident to keep her busy!) But the trick worked, and all the Orators and Senators gave tongue, like the Hannibal Chollops that they were. I remember the wife of a Senator who, apart from his politics, was very largely civilised, invited me to drop into the Senate and listen to her spouse ’twisting the Lion’s tail.’ It seemed an odd sort of refreshment to offer a visitor. I could not go, but I read his speech. [At the present time (autumn ’35) I have also read with interest the apology offered by an American Secretary of State to Nazi Germany for unfavourable comments on that land by a New York Police Court Judge.] But those were great and spacious and friendly days in Washington which—politics apart—Allah had not altogether deprived of a sense of humour; and the food was a thing to dream of.


36 posted on 02/05/2005 6:32:28 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: NMC EXP
You are not only clueless, you do not even have a suspicion.

Me? Oh, yeah. You assumed I was referring to you personally instead of the typical Freeper reply to the article itself. It must take some intelligence to realize that though.

Learn some manners.

I won't if I follow your example.

37 posted on 02/05/2005 6:32:32 PM PST by xJones
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To: NMC EXP; Jones-
The comments preceding the poem are from the George Mason University "History Matters" website. I suggest you take up your complaint with the GMU history department.

Considering that the GMU history department gutted the poem and completely changed its tone in the process, I'd say xJones had a point.

38 posted on 02/05/2005 6:33:56 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: NMC EXP

there are many liberal creeps who cite this as proof of our "racist imperialism." They just don't get what Kipling was getting at.

There is a difference between civilized, modern, human beings and brutal, tribal cultures. It is time for humans to move beyond those racist, murderous, animalistic tribal practices. Defending humans from those practices is not, itself, a racist act. It is the burden of civilized people.

The fact that, in this respect, the humans who represented these civilized concepts were primarily "white" is merely coincidence. Concentrating on the racial makeup of the people that "imposed" civilization on the brutal cultures of places like the late 1800s, early 1900s, Phillipines is, itself, a racist idea.

Is human sacrifice an "OK thing" because it is a part of a native culture? Is slavery? Is misogony?

Sorry, but the idea of defending rape, murder and racism as equal to modern culture based on some perverted "prime directive" is ludicrous. Kipling had it right. It just happened to be 'white men' who were saddled with this particular trial.

It doesn't make 'white men' better than other humans, merely the ones who got to a civilized state first. There is a big temptation to merely ignore this "burden" and let the "animals" kill themsleves off, while civilization moves on without them. That notion would be truly racist.


39 posted on 02/05/2005 6:35:59 PM PST by Phsstpok ("When you don't know where you are, but you don't care, you're not lost, you're exploring.")
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To: dirtboy

This is curious. I thought George Mason Univ was a conservative (at least by today's standards) outfit.

Did some graduate assistant doctor the original before posting on the GMU website?

I had not read the complete version for a while and thought something was missing.

Where did you find the version you posted?


40 posted on 02/05/2005 6:36:33 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: NMC EXP
Where did you find the version you posted?

I Googled "White Man's Burden" and found a version where three websites agreed.

41 posted on 02/05/2005 6:37:38 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: NMC EXP
I had not read the complete version for a while and thought something was missing.

I cannot profess an academic knowledge of Kipling, but that couplet made a lasting impression upon me when I first read it, which is why I noticed it was missing. Going back and reading the GMU version, one can see that all the negative language of the poem has been removed, which changes the tone of the poem from a precautionary tale to a pep rally.

42 posted on 02/05/2005 6:41:07 PM PST by dirtboy (.)
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To: John_Wheatley

No Human being or country can totally live up to their ideals. It doesn't mean they can't be close. America was founded on freedom, but not if you were a woman or a slave, but no-one can say it wasn't a positive for its time.

** This is true.


43 posted on 02/05/2005 6:42:05 PM PST by cyborg (Department of Homelife Security threat level is GREEN.)
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To: dirtboy

Thank you very much--

and thank you, too, NMC EXP, for posting the article in the first place!!!


44 posted on 02/05/2005 6:42:50 PM PST by Txsleuth (Proud to be a Texan)
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To: NMC EXP
Rudyard Kipling---real men write poetry.

1892

MANDALAY

by Rudyard Kipling

MANDALAY -

By the old Moulmein Pagoda, lookin' eastward to the sea,

There's a Burma girl a-settin', and I know she thinks o' me;

For the wind is in the palm-trees, and the temple-bells they say:

"Come you back, you British soldier: come you back to Mandalay!" -

Come you back to Mandalay,

Where the old Flotilla lay;

Can't you 'ear their paddles chunkin' from

Rangoon to Mandalay?

O the road to Mandalay,

Where the flyin'-fishes play,

An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer

China 'crost the Bay! -

'Er petticoat was yaller an' 'er little cap was green,

An' 'er name was Supi-yaw-lat- jes' the same as Theebaw's Queen,

An' I seed her first a-smokin' of a whackin' white cheroot,

An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot: -

Bloomin' idol made o' mud- What they called the Great Gawd Budd-

Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed

'er where she stud!

On the road to Mandalay, etc. -

When the mist was on the rice-fields an' the sun was droppin' slow,

She'd git her little banjo an' she'd sing "Kulla-lo-lo!"

With 'er arm upon my shoulder an' 'er cheek agin my cheek

We uster watch the steamers an' the hathis pilin' teak. -

Elephints a-pilin' teak

In the sludgy, squdgy creek,

Where the silence 'ung that 'eavy you was

'arf afraid to speak!

On the road to Mandalay, etc. -

But that's all shove be'ind me- long ago an' fur away,

An' there ain't no 'busses runnin' from the Bank to Mandalay;

An' I'm learnin' 'ere in London what the ten-year soldier tells:

"If you've 'eard the East a-callin', you won't never 'eed naught else." -

No! you won't 'eed nothin' else

But them spicy garlic smells,

An' the sunshine an' the palm-trees an' the

tinkly temple-bells;

On the road to Mandalay, etc. -

I am sick o' wastin' leather on these gritty pavin' stones,

An' the blasted Henglish drizzle wakes the fever in my bones;

Tho' I walks with fifty 'ousemaids outer Chelsea to the Strand,

An' they talks a lot o' lovin', but wot do they understand? -

Beefy face an' grubby 'and-

Law! wot do they understand?

I've a neater, sweeter maiden in a cleaner,

greener land!

On the road to Mandalay, etc. -

Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,

Where there aren't no Ten Commandments, an' a man can raise a thirst;

For the temple-bells are callin', and it's there that I would be-

By the old Moulmein Pagoda, looking lazy at the sea. -

On the road to Mandalay,

Where the old Flotilla lay,

With our sick beneath the awnings when we

went to Mandalay!

Oh the road to Mandalay,

Where the flyin'-fishes play,

An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer

China 'crost the Bay! - -

THE END

45 posted on 02/05/2005 6:44:09 PM PST by gg188
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To: NMC EXP
And it was my mistake for posting to myself.

The matter is forgotten and I am sorry I didn't post my response to you. Hell, I told you I was drinking, LOL!

My mistake, my apology. I'll drink a cold one for ya'!

Arioch7 out.

46 posted on 02/05/2005 6:45:13 PM PST by Arioch7
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To: Phsstpok
Is human sacrifice an "OK thing" because it is a part of a native culture? Is slavery? Is misogony?

Wrong question.

"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers."
-- Thomas Pynchon

It is the burden of civilized people.

I disagree with that from a moral standpoint. You may have a theological argument but I am not going to debate matters of faith.

You may consider it to be a responsibility (burden) but the fact is that spreading "democracy" and enlightenment is not among the enumerated powers granted to the govt.

So feel free to spend your money and possibly life to bring good things to the savages. Just don't demand that me and mine join you in your crusade.

47 posted on 02/05/2005 6:46:02 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: gg188

This is the lyric version in the song based on the poem. A folk song, I guess you'd call it. Though Mr. Sinatra did a kick-a version.


48 posted on 02/05/2005 6:47:36 PM PST by gg188
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To: Phsstpok

Not all European colonists were created equal either if one studies England,France,Spain and Portugal together. I'd put France right at the bottom. From the looks of modern Europe, there's fertile ground for all those African preachers converted from their pagan ways.


49 posted on 02/05/2005 6:47:44 PM PST by cyborg (Department of Homelife Security threat level is GREEN.)
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To: NMC EXP

The White man's burden was the begginig of the end for the BRitish Empire -- it made them condescending tot he people they had conquered and it was a mistake. The Brits never went anywhere to better the lot of the natives, they rather went to make money off of them.


50 posted on 02/05/2005 6:49:49 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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