Life or Death - A Conversation With Peter Singer

National Catholic Register ^ | February 24, 2005 | ROBERT BRENNAN

[kosta50]

In addition to kosta's remarks, we ought also to understand that as a general proposition, Orthodoxy looks more to the joy and glory of the Resurrection than to the Passion

That is 100% accurate! Along with mercy and compassion.

[kosta50]

You are not only asking me to judge, but to judge a saint!

Love does not refuse; Love does not reject. If Saint Rafqa asked God from her heart to permit her to suffer so she can share in the suffering of Jesus, I am not surprized that her wish was answered.

God is impassionate. Our sufferings neither please nor displease Him.

I am not sure I understand why she even underwent treatment if she knew that her ailmenti was due to her wish. But that is not mine to answer.

However, this is a completely different topic. The topic of the posted article is about suffeirng infants and whether we should let them suffer. Since they can't make that decision, we as Christians must guide ourselves by mercy and compassion.

God is our Comforter. If we try to be in His image, we should provide comfort, not pain. Senlsless suffering of an infant is not pedagogical, for it will neither change anything for the better, nor did the infant do anything to warrant it.

[TAdams8591]

I had this debate years ago with several people. Their concern was not normal vs. extraordinary means, it was for them quality of life. And in fact I debated this with someone this very day.

Essentially then in their minds if a person doesn't pass the "quality of life standard," it is morally justifiable to euthanize them whether or not they are on life support that is extraordinary or none at all.

One can see this reflected in the arguments of ordinary people today.

Interesting post. Thank you.

[NYer]

Yes, this is a very interesting argument. Sadly, today, were one to abort the unborn puppies of a pregnant dog, the courts would more than likely rule the action as animal cruelty.

You read the initial thread but missed my Post #15

[NYer]

You are not only asking me to judge, but to judge a saint!

Not really. God is that judge.

I was addressing the concept you raised of suffering as evil. Kolokotronis made an astute observation insofar as St. Rafqa, noting the Latin 'influence' on the Maronite Church, which he presumes led to and justified Rafqa's personal mortification.

Rafqa is one of many catholic saints who sincerely requested a share in Christ's Passion through personal suffering. There are far too many for me to recall their names, much less the justifications submitted for this purpose. The Church ensures that these were not self-inflicted but requested. I do recall the story of one saint (name eludes me) who asked our Lord for personal suffering to repay the sins of her father (or was it her step father?). She was not only granted this request, but was rewarded with the gratification of knowing that her suffering had released him from Purgatory.

Aha! Here is the distinct difference that separates us! Purgatory. Perhaps this is why the Orthodox Churches shy away from purgative suffering?

As to some of the other Maronite saints, my personal favorite is St. Charbel. True story ... several weeks ago, a family in Cleveland OH were told by their OB/GYN that the child the wife was carrying had severe cardiac defects and they advised her to abort the child. Before acting on their advice, she telephoned a Maronite priest in CA. He counseled the couple that it would be better to give birth to the child, have it baptized into the Church and allow God to choose the proper moment to bring it home than to kill it in the womb.

They heeded the advice of the Maronite priest. The wife delivered a boy and had it baptized in the hospital, immediately after birth. They named the child, Charbel, and asked for this saint's intervention in saving the life of their son. Word went out to the Maronite communities and prayers were requested for this baby boy.

The child was immediately put on life support and doctors expected that he would not survive for long. Now, two weeks later, we are advised that a medical team was assembled to perform surgery on Baby Charbel. Missing valves and ventricles were constructed from what little his heart had to offer.

The operation was declared a success and Baby Charbel is now off of life support, breathing on his own and the doctors have given him a good prognosis.

Surely, all of this 'suffering' is meritorious. Please remember Baby Charbel in your prayers. He is not out of the woods just yet but his life is a far cry from an abortion.

Father of Truth

(The Last Prayer of Saint Charbel before he died)

 

Father of truth,

Here is your Son,

The sacrifice in which you are well pleased.

Accept him for he died for me.

So through him I shall be pardoned.

Here is the offering.

Take it from my hands

And so I shall be reconciled with you.

Remember not the sins that I have committed

In front of your Majesty.

Here is the blood which flowered on Golgotha

For my salvation and prays for me.

Out of consideration for this,

Accept my supplication.

I have committed many sins

But your mercy is great.

If you put them in the balance,

Your goodness will have more weight

Than the most mighty mountains.

Look not upon my sins,

But rather on what is offered for them,

For the offering and the sacrifice

Are even greater than the offences.

Because I have sinned,

Your beloved bore the nails and the spear.

His sufferings are enough to satisfy you.

By them I shall live.

Glory be to the Father who sent His Son for us.

Adoration be to the Son who has freed us and ensured our salvation.

Blessed be he who by his love has given life to all.

To him be the glory.

 

from the Maronite Liturgy.

[Kolokotronis]

"Aha! Here is the distinct difference that separates us! Purgatory. Perhaps this is why the Orthodox Churches shy away from purgative suffering?"

Well, while the concept of purgatory does separate us, Kosta was right. Orthodox writers hold that God's love shines on all, the good and the evil. He does not desire suffering to happen to anyone. A Fallen World creates suffering and disaster. It is sometimes posited that God allows, as Kosta points out, pedagogical suffering, but that is not what you describe St. Rafqa as undergoing I don't think. And in any event, pedagogical suffering is not purgative suffering. It is also said that God might allow a disaster to occur to prevent the further spread of an evil. But even this is love and not a punishment.

At base, the desire to "share in the Passion of Christ" is foreign to Orthodoxy. I was reminded today of the life of St. Polycarp whose feast we call celebrated this week. In the full story of his life it is related that during the persecutions of the Christians, various Christians were seized with a great desire for martyrdom, to suffer death for the Faith. They gathered together and went to the arena or wherever it was the executions were taking place and announced they wished to suffer, Instead they found themselves apostatizing by worshiping the Emperor. This didn't happen because they chickened out at the last moment but because, as the biographer points out, it is wrong in God's eyes to seek out suffering and death which amounts to a rejection of God's Love. Let me add, however, that our reaction to the pain and suffering which in life will find us without any effort on our part, can be a great help or hindrance to our theosis.

In my own opinion, I think the Western embrace of ideas like seeking to experience the Passion and Sufferings of Christ stem from the West's view of mankind after the Fall and the vaguely pagan notion that God demands some sort of tribute from each of us for the forgiveness of our sins.

[kosta50]

Not really. God is that judge

God is Love and Love can only give blessings. To those who hate Him, His blessings are poison. To those who love Him, His blessings are life.

God is not the author of hell. Those who go to hell are not there because of God.

[kosta50]

Wonderfully worded. I have nothing to add to your post, Kolo. I just want to offer a couple of ideas of what suffering accomplishes: suffering allows us to forgive those who persecute us, or to be able to say "Thy Will be done!" with peace; it allows us to foresake the earthly and embrace the heavenly; it allows us to pray for those who trouble us; it allows us to be Christ-like!

The idea that suffering is what God demands from us in order to "repay" Him our debts for sin, that is a portrait of an angry and insulted God, which is alien to Eastern Christianity.

[eleni121]

If Singer were just another kook getting his few minutes of fame from the media, he would be soon ignored...and gone back to the land down under.

Unfortunately, his views are honored and transmitted to future generations of gullible and self hating.

[Got a right to Life? . . Huh?]

Unfortunately, Singer is typical of the liberal professors teaching today in most of our institutions of "higher learning." The interview was a pretty shocking example of where moral relativism and secularism can lead the "intellectual" mind.

Conservatives have made some headway into the liberal media domination. K-12 education has the handicaps of being a government monopoly and union run. Something must be done to right the leftist imbalance at our universities and the monopoly in K-12 education. We can not continue to allow liberal education institutions to mold the political and moral ethics of our citizens.

[NYer]

Thank you both for your insight. I still have much to learn from the East. ('Lives of the Desert Fathers'has been shipped and should be here soon!)

The idea that suffering is what God demands from us in order to "repay" Him our debts for sin, that is a portrait of an angry and insulted God, which is alien to Eastern Christianity.

This notion is a bit skewed. I have never been taught that God demands suffering. Rather, it is the concept of an individual 'offering' suffering up for their own transgressions or those of others.

[Kolokotronis]

"I have never been taught that God demands suffering. Rather, it is the concept of an individual 'offering' suffering up for their own transgressions or those of others."

To the extent that one can "offer up" personal, un-sought out suffering in an effort to become more like God, I suppose this is OK. But for Orthodoxy, this isn't any kind of atonement idea. We repent of our sins and pray for those who are evil to us because those are ways in which we become more like God. Some Orthodox writers posit that at the Final Judgment it is not our sins or even our good deeds which are weighed out in the balance, but rather how much we have become like Christ during our lives. This is because, to paraphrase +Athanasius in De Incarnatione, "God became man so that man could become like God."

[kosta50]

I have never been taught that God demands suffering. Rather, it is the concept of an individual 'offering' suffering up for their own transgressions or those of others

The whole concept of Purgatory is based precisely on the idea that God demands punishment to His "satisfaction." This notion is driven by the somewhat pagan understanding of God's Justice -- one that is driven by Necessity to which even God is not immune. It implies that those who end in hell are there because of God.

God is Love, and Love is merciful and compassionate -- to the righteous and the unrighteous. If God were kind to some and unkind to others, God couldn't be unchanging and eternally the same.

The iniquities of mankind are forgiven through repentance. Those who do not repent in this lifetime cannot be saved. God applies the same expectations on us. Remember, unless we forgive we cannot be forgiven. And if someone repents, we must forgive (Luke 17:3-4).

[Jeff Blogworthy]

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