Freeper Comments Requested: Custer and Stuart

self | 4/6/05 | LS

[LS]

Freepers, I'm interested in the independent actions of George A. Custer at Little Big Horn and JEB Stuart from Brandy Station to Gettysburg on his "wild ride."

1) On Custer, I'd appreciate Freeper comments on Fox's book, "Archeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle" and "Lakota Noon." I've read the "standards: Stewart, Utley, and other older books. What do you think of Fox's "disintegration" theory? It does fit VERY well with Victor Hanson's model of western-style armies gaining their superiority from drill and discipline more than firepower (per se.) I'm especially interested in the following questions: a) did Custer exceed his orders? b) did Terry expect Custer to attack alone? c) is there ANY indication Terry knew Crook had turned back? d) what role did fatigue of Custer's men play in the defeat?

2) Please, without re-fighting the Civil War or its causes, I'm interested in Freeper comments on Jeb Stuart and his ride through PA, capturing the 125 wagons. I know Freeman's view (essentially blaming Stuart for denying Lee his "eyes," even though Freeman himself downplays this later). My questions are, a) in your opinion did Stuart exceed his orders? b) were his men too fatigued to fight even if they had arrived at Gettysburg earlier? c) how important was the Rummel Farm battle? (Was it, as one or two have said, the "key" to Lee's defeat at G-burg?)

[LS]

Thanks guys and gals. Freepers are always a good source of previously un-vented opinions and resources.

[Huck]

Please, without re-fighting the Civil War or its causes

Oh come on! Can't we please?? Where's WhiskeyPapa? Where's 4ConservativeJustices? Let's rumble :-P

[leadpenny]

Did you just watch "They died with their boots on" on TCM this morning? (Like I did?)

[rellimpank]

--I presume you have read Son of the Morning Star---?

[fireforeffect]

One mission of cavalry is to gather information on the enemy. Both Custer with the Lakota and Stewart at Gettysburg had this as a primary mission. Both sought glory, not the success of their commander's mission.

In both cases the orders were poorly written.

If memory serves me. After a big fire on the Little Big Horn battlefield an extensive archaeological investigation was performed. Specifically with metal detectors. One of the findings was large quantities of fired cartridges. IMHO Custer lost because he ran out of ammunition. Remember his last message out was "send up the packs" (ammunition pack mules). Whereas Bannon(?) had the pack mules and could continue to fight.

At Gettysburg, Lee lost because he ignored Longstreet and executed Pickett's Charge. Stewart's folly precipitated the battle, it did not determine it's outcome. Also if Hill had attacked aggressively on the first day, Gettysburg would have been a different fight.

[kalee]

bump for later

[Rebelbase]

"Both sought glory, not the success of their commander's mission."

Bump. Egos that were too big for their saddles.

[stainlessbanner]

Where's WhiskeyPapa? Where's 4ConservativeJustices?

Walt is a little tied up right now.

[Huck]

Sorry, I get nostalgic sometimes. Ever seen a movie called "Skin Game" with James Garner and Lou Gossett, Jr? It's from the 70s. Pretty funny flick set in the days of bloody Kansas. If you ever run across it, check it out.

[4CJ]

No need to rumble, we're friends. Just a difference of opinion on an issue or two, but still conservatives ;o)

[fight_truth_decay]

http://www.swcivilwar.com/StuartReportGett.html
J.E.B. Stuart's report of the Gettysburg Campaign

Captain R. E. Frayser's
Tribute to Jeb Stuart
http://www.swcivilwar.com/Stuart_FrayserTribute.html

"Gettysburg: A Novel of the Civil War" written by Newt Gingrich and military historian William
http://history.bookbest.com/node/united-states/gettysburg/942825.html

The Great Salt Lake Trail
http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/SaltLake/00000028.htm

[4CJ]

I've seen 'Skin Game' - they attempt to con everybody!

[4CJ]

Last I heard Walt was looking for a stable roommate.

[ladtx]

What happened to Wlat? Haven't seen him around for a while.

[CivilWarguy]

The best analysis of whether Jeb Stuart exceeded his orders during his Gettysburg Campaign raid is Dave Powell's article in Gettysburg Magazine. Dave basically concludes that Stuart did NOT exceed his orders, that in fact Stuart exercised the discretion Lee's orders gave him. Whether Stuart should have gone off raiding is another question.

[jeffDavis1861]

Custer and Stuart were both very able calvery officers as well as being brave men. It's very easy to judge military errors in retrospect. Custer's orders were vague, but Terry had enough confidence in Custer to let him decide for himself the best course of action to round up the Indians and prevent them from escaping.

Custer and Stuart died as brave soldiers in the service of their countries.

[The Great RJ]

Part of Custer's defeat was due to the Indian forces being better armed. The battlefield archeology showed that the Lakota forces had significant numbers of repeating rifles while Custer's men were armed mainly with single shot carbines that were prone to jam.

[stainlessbanner]

permanent vacation

[LS]

Yes. I'd say this fits more with the "Lakota Moon" school than the Utley school.

[LS]

My impression also was that both exceeded their orders, especially Custer. But I'm open to other evidence. The archeological evidence you speak of is in Fox's book---a very persuasive book.