Posted on 05/06/2005 8:34:53 AM PDT by Dubya
I see Pukin Dog, a squared-away guy who knows his stuff, put you in your place about this. Ain't no 'stunts' in the Blue Angels. 8~)
I like the way you put that. Always enjoy your posts regarding military aviation.
"When you are at the controls, and in charge of other people's lives, you don't break the rules to 'show off'."
In Army Aviation culture the command pilot has complete control of the aircraft. If the junior pilot objects to a stunt - almost always nothing happens - if a crew chief objects then for sure nothing will happen.
Considering that everyone's life is on the line then supreme power leads to supreme stupidity.
B-T-W in Vietnam the Aussies flew with a crew of 4 in a UH-1 but all were qualified pilots and they took turns flying rotating days. It appeared that they didn't screw around since it was their culture to work as a team rather than supreme commander and underlings.
He'd been at Nellis (where I was stationed) shortly before the crash. Told his ground troops to be at such and such location at a specific time because he was going to fly the notch in the ridge. There's video tape from that occasion. He comes screaming up the hillside, maybe a max of fifty feet off the deck and blows through this notch in the ridgeline. We saw footage from the guys he flew over - you could count the rivets in the panels, before they got blown down by jet wash - the other video is from a high point on the notch, looking down on the top of the aircraft. He was good - but he was arrogant - and it cost him his life, and the life of his crew.
Used to do heavy maintenance for the Thunderbirds. 57th CRS, Jet Engine Intermediate Maintenance shop - it wasn't a matter of being "hot," it was a matter of being good. When you're flying wing over wing, and changing paint at three hundred knots, there's no room for someone who doesn't follow directions.
Okay, I should have worded that differently. Didn't mean it in any negative way. Sorry to both.
Poor guy... growing up in a military family, I saw guys do this sort of stuff all the time, usually at the egging on of other guys around them... It's foolish, but it is part of the reality of the military, or any group of young men for that matter.
I don't disagree that the pilot showed poor judgment, but I wonder about the "show" in which he was getting ready to perform.
Air shows and demonstrations are hardly a necessity. The services have them to entertain big brass, impress civilian leaders, and to build enthusiam that benefits recruiters. They are frequently the sites of major disasters and crashes. I gave up attending them after that big one in Germany back in the 80s where the stunt planes crashed and pieces of them were hurled into the crowd.
It seems a stupid thing to have pilots "perform" in a war zone to impress the Generals. Although I find the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds as amazing as anyone else, I can't see the sense in these guys risking their lives to put on a show.
GW
He was one of those guys who though he should have been put in an F-15, and spent his whole career trying to prove it.
A stupid thing?
Okay, I'm going to try to be patient with you.
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to motivate a college graduate with their whole life ahead of them to consider a career in the military? If we relied on the academies alone, we would never have enough people talented enough to fly the various military aircraft in our inventory.
I was never a Blue Angel but I did fly for the F-14 Demo team, and I cant tell you how many kids came up to me after a show and told me that they wanted to do what I was doing, just because of the 'cool-factor'. After that, you have to give them the straight skinny on what the life is really like, how you are gone all the time, how it kills marriages, how you can really just DIE in an instant from a stupid mistake, how you wont really make enough money for a long, long time, and finally, how you might not even be good enough to get into a Tomcat(or today a Hornet) anyway, and be saddled with a slower, much less cool aircraft until your time is up.
That knocks off 80% of those who wanted to do it, because its 'cool'. Out of the remaining 20%, maybe one in 200 will have the skill, grades, fitness and discipline to get through.
Without those 'stupid' shows, your chances of finding that one dude would be nil.
He's not a bad guy, imo. He made a mistake and had some very bad luck. Fine him, bust him down a rank, reprimand him, then let him get back to flying.
There is a certain margin of safety with these machines. It would be defensible to approach or exceed it in combat and training for combat. That kind of training can be done on the ranges where the public is safe. Putting civilian spectator's lives in jeopardy for the sake of recruiting is just foolish.
The whole "cool" issue is just too immature to even discuss. It's adolescent! I respect the skill, training, and devotion of our pilots. It's a waste of that skill, training, and devotion (not to mention a multi-million dollar aircraft) to lose them for the sake of an air show.
GW
also, never dare a TF 160th pilot that a Blackhawk can't fly an up and over loop...
You are right, but those people tend to find something more sane to do for a living before signing up for 8 years on a bet that you can be good enough not to end up flying a bus. It might be fun to fly a fighter, but learning how to fly a fighter is more boring than watching paint dry. Sometimes, ego is all you've got to keep you studying while your friends are at the beach.
Hardly the same thing. Those demonstration team pilots are highly disciplined. Their maneuvers are not spur of the moment things, they are planned well in advance, gone over on the ground, and practices and practiced and practiced.
It's the difference between a guy on a road race course and some dummy who decides to put the pedal to the metal to "see what she can do", on some winding stretch of highway.
And the Air Force as well. Goes back to the days of fabric covered bi-planes, in both the old Army Air Corps, and the Navy/Marines.
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