[ZULU]

BAD DECISION!!

Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests should NOT be permitted to loot national parkland which is the common property of ALL citizens, not just resources to be plundered by the few.

And WHERE will this lumber go??? To CHINA??, JAPAN???

National parks should be restricted to hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife preservation and use by ALL citizens, not just selected private interests.

FLAME AWAY!!!

[Cold Heart]

I'm not going to bother pointing out where you mis-read, mis-understood, or just plain have no idea what you are talking about.

[Torie]

Well, one issue is whether the logging companies pay full freight to the government for the trees. If they don't, it is a ripoff. I have concerns too, in any event. Folks who rent government land or get government water rarely pay market rates. They are a class of welfare queens in that sense.

[flashbunny]

Why flame away?

It would be like trying to teach a pig to sing.

[skeptoid]

No flaming, just the facts, ma'am.

I've lived and worked in open range country for 7 years and in the Tongass National Forest for 35 years. It is the >>Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests<< who keep the public lands in good shape...if...and this is usually the case...there is proper management and supervision by the appropriate agencies. Good grazing and logging practice actually enhances, improves and beautifies the land. The same CAN be true for mining, but unlike the other two mining is purely an extraction of resource. But the end result can be much improved and beautiful, productive countryside through regrading, soil improvement, replanting, landscaping and other enhancements.

Just like any other asset, if you don't at least maintain (and hopefully improve) the public land, it deteriorates.

Wise use, I say.

[microgood]

Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests should NOT be permitted to loot national parkland which is the common property of ALL citizens, not just resources to be plundered by the few.

They cut down trees so you do not have to live in a cave. If we share our natural resources so all Americans can buy 2x4s by using our natural resourses then that means we are smart and not stupid marxists.

[Smokin' Joe]

FLAME AWAY!!!

OK. Not National PARK, but National FOREST.

There is a difference. One is to be preserved, the other to be used.

Timber (in the form of trees) is a resource with a finite lifespan and an ideal age at harvest. Beyond this, it is just so much fuel for a fire, but not a useable resource.

Part of the increase in housing costs came from increased lumber prices when huge tracts were closed to logging to save spotted owls, iirc.

Why run a deficit when that timber is at prime age to harvest? Let the gubmint pick up some bucks so I won't have to pay them in out of my pocket.

National parks should be restricted to hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife preservation and use by ALL citizens, not just selected private interests.

Try hunting in the park some time. National Forest, yes, National Park, a Felony.

[WorkingClassFilth]

"FLAME AWAY!!!"

You have provided the rebuttal to your nonsense more concisely than I could.

[softengine]

You're gonna get flamed. There exists here on FR a growing number of folks who cannot and will not allow themselves to hear any point of view but that which aligns itself with blind Bush admin policy..

Don't get me wrong, I love W. He's been awesome on so many scores I lost count. But he, and the GOP, have been way off the mark on many more. This is just one example...There's the Patriot Act, The Parental Consent Act, The (quasi)National ID..., with Ron Paul being the lone voice of reason in a vast wilderness of sh!theads.

It will be intesting to watch how our closed-mindedness plays out over the next 5-10 years. My guess - it'll come back to haunt us.

Wonder if we'll like the hindsight view as much as the closet commie left does these days? ;]

[Southack]

"Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests should NOT be permitted to loot national parkland"

To "loot" means to take without paying. Loggers and cattle grazers pay, so they aren't looters. Besides, the trees grow back. There are more trees in the U.S. today than in 1776. The grass that the cattle graze grows back, too.

Unless you don't log and graze forests and National Parks. It's that logging and grazing that cuts down on forest fires that would otherwise simply destroy that which you neglected to use.

If you want wildfires, then ban logging and grazing.

For instance, in California, where logging is tightly regulated by the State, wildfires are common. In the woodland state of Alabama, however, wildfires have been banished for the past 3 decades due to scientific forest fire management (i.e., strategic logging).

So if you want to save your National Parks for recreational uses by all American citizens, you'd better instigate scientific wildfire management.

That means: logging and logging roads.

Otherwise you'll simply get raging wildfires every year that force the EVACUATIONS of national Parks and nearby residential areas.

[Danae]

No need, just go stand in the middle of the Biscuit fire in southern Oregon, your a$$ will get toasted by that policy just as soon as thunderstorm season starts there. A Nature ZOT if I ever did see one.

Your Opinion is one that the MSM has implanted in your brain. Seriously! Says nothing about you as a person. Your Opinion just does not follow in practice what your theorem predicts.

The lumber in the Biscuit Fire has been lying on the ground DEAD for three years! It is KINDLING for an even bigger fire this year, where we have had about 40% of the precipitation of normal for the State! How is THAT good management? Get it out of there before it burns again!!!
How is having an Un-Natural canopy of trees (it ain't NATURALY that thick!) using up too much water, creating ideal conditions for beetle infestations from a lack of sap in the trees, causing more dead trees, making more kindling, gonna do anyone any good? Wise harvesting of trees PREVENTS forest fires in healthy forrests! Contrary to common popular belief, Loggers want HEALTHY Forrests! It gives them and a LOT of other people steady JOBS! Cut down all the trees, then there are no jobs for long!!! Do you REALY think they are that stupid? Ok, then just go check the numbers and acreages of the fires in Oregon on "Public" lands and on Privately owned lands. Here 51% of the land is Publicaly Owned. Most of the fires happen there rather than the Private. Ask yourself why, AND ask yourself why those private owners have steady incomes! It's called "LAND MANAGMENT"! When it is done right, the trees win, the land wins, the animals win, the Loggers win, the Lumbermen win, the Timber companies win, and the Economy wins. How bout following a WINNING stratgy instead of swallowing what the Enviro-idiots say? They are only trying to create fear so that they have something to justify their existence with! Hello! Hellooooo??? Doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different outcome is MADNESS! Insanity!

[hineybona]

Im with you buddy ...National parks should be restricted to hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife preservation and use by ALL citizens, not just selected private interests.
What will wind up there eventually..Some condos ????

[Leatherneck_MT]

No Flame, but it's not a bad Decision.

They need to thin these forests a bit in order to let healthier trees grow. This will be overall better management of these forested areas by getting dead and sick trees out and letting the younger healthier trees grow.

The west has been burning up over the last few years because of very misguided Enviro-nazi policies the Left wing government under the Democrats, put into place.

Now if they can get in to clean some of that crap up, MORE Citizens will be able to enjoy not only our national parks, but also other areas of woodlands NOT designated as National Parks.

No "opinion" about it here, I live around and work with Foresters and Loggers here in Montana and THEY are the professionals. Not some political hack in Washington and these guys all agree that it's high time that this was done.

[Balding_Eagle]

National parks should be restricted to hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife preservation and use by ALL citizens, not just selected private interests.

What about the rest of us (clearly the majority of US citizens) who don't hunt, fish camp, hike, etc.?

It seems the 'selected private interests' are, in fact, the hunters, fishermen, hikers, campers, etc.

[Carry_Okie]

Logging, mining and cattle grazing interests should NOT be permitted to loot national parkland which is the common property of ALL citizens, not just resources to be plundered by the few.

Recreational parkland interests should NOT be permitted to loot logging, mining and cattle grazing, which is the common property of ALL citizens, not just resources to be plundered by the few. < /sarcasm>

There is a reason The Nature Conservancy pumps oil, grazes cattle, and logs timber. Failure to log a lot of these forests has resulted in meadow encroachment, stand replacing fires, and massive erosion. Halting grazing has resulted in millions of acres of cheat grass and deserted range now consisting of a monoculture of decadent sage. With the resulting loss of topsoil has been accelerated down-cut erosion, silt in rivers, and massively reduced water retention in soil. Together, those consequences endangered multiple species. Cattle grazing could have kept down the sage brush and small trees thus preserving the meadows. Mining could finance habitat restoration. The point is, there is room (and a need) for both. It's just a matter of how it's done.

[jb6]

It's one thing to cut down dead wood and clear the brush and do control fires, fully agree to that. But to allow private concerns, that could purchase private land, to do this on state payed lands (no doubt the taxpayer will pay for the roads too) just to send this to China, screw that. Yup, ready for the flaming.

[SauronOfMordor]

The roads that the logging companies cut in order to get at the timber, is what the hikers, campers, and hunters use in order to get at the remote areas in order to enjoy them

Trees have a natural lifespan. They sprout, grow, get old and diseased, and die. Better to harvest them and replant, than to have underbrush and deadwood accumulate to the point of a major forest fire

[Trteamer]

National parks should be restricted to hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, wildlife preservation and use by ALL citizens, not just selected private interests.

Boy did you set yourself up for flaming. Have you ever even been to a National Park? In the first place, it does not belong to the people, it belongs to the government. Try to enter without paying the appropriate "fee". Secondly, hunting and wildlife management are completely banned in all National Parks. Tha's right folks, wildlife management is banned in the parks, and so is timber management.

The National Park Service is guilty of mis-management of the very natural resources they are paid to preserve. Their policy is one of sitting on their a**es and collecting money at the toll booth. Classic example is Rocky Mountain National Park. The carrying capacity of the elk herd is 800, and there are 8,000 elk in the park eating everything in sight. Some day there will be a bad winter with a total die off of elk in the park, then the carrying capicity will ba something like 80 elk. For the next 50 years.

That will be nothing compared to the forest fire that will one day turn the whole park into ashes and mudslides.

The Forest Circus is not much better at proper management of forests. They prefer to ride around in their pickup trucks collecting "fees" at the campgrounds.

[ImpeachandRemove]

You do not understand the difference between national parks, which are properly preserved, and national forests, which are managed for multiple use. The initial distinction was by TR, and it is just as valid now as then. What slick willy did was revoke multiple use on national forest land, and institute a moronic "protection" policy. The lack of management and multiple use has been detrimental to both the forests and the communities that depend on those forests for a livelihood.

[csmusaret]

National parks and National forests are two very different things.

[ATCNavyRetiree]

Hey DUmmie...national FORESTS are open to logging, not national PARKS....