Posted on 05/21/2005 2:42:09 PM PDT by Pharmboy
RE: B-52's at Guam.
I saw that while sitting on an R&R flight waiting for our turn to take off. Almost couldn't see it though, as I looked down the runway, with the amount of black smoke those puppies put out.
Not sure but I think water injection was used for extra HP on takeoff. That was the reason for the black smoke, anyway, that was the only explanation I heard while there.
Many years ago, we went over that cliff on Guam (Andersen) with a fully loaded B-29, losing number 4 engine just after rotation.
We were wave hopping for several minutes with max power on the other three and cylinder head temp on number two climbing into the red. Number two was shut down on short final.
Landing with a bomb bay load of 500 pounders is always a thrill.
"Stalling the wing and entering an inadvertant spin does make an airplane "plunge". and with not enough altitude to recover usually fatal."
He'd have to be pretty close to the ground. I did stall training in a 172 and after freaking out the first time learned that all you have to do is take your hands off the yoke and it will right itself. They're pretty stable.
"several generations of poor spin training that occurred in the United States for years in civilian aviation."
I don't think they've required spin training for years.
Did they call it a "pucker factor" back then? Bet you could have lifted a ten pound seat cushion . . . if ya know what I mean?
I for one, did not mind.
Part of my learning to fly lessons were in a Piper Tomahawk.....
Yep, I got pucker factor just from watching the takeoffs from that airfield.
"I don't think they've required spin training for years."
You are correct. I learned to fly in the United Kingdom and entry to a full spin and recovery was required. When I came back to the States all my students were taught proper spin recovery before I would solo them. I would take them to altitude and demonstrate spins and then have them do them. Once they were comfortable I would then show them how it actually happens on a slow turn to finals, I also did this at altitude. I would have them do an imaginary pattern but have the craft a few knots above stall. When they would turn finals I would then kick in to much left rudder and the craft would enter a spin. That is how most spin accidents happen. If you know how to spin and recover it is no big thing. To enter a spin by yourself with no training will scare the hell out of most pilots. In a full spin you are actually going very slow as the aircraft is in a very high drag attitude.
I remember the first time an instructor gave me spin training. There was no doubt in my mind that we were going to make a rather large hole in the ground. It did frighten me. We have thousands of pilots out there that do not know what the hell to do when it happens. I have also did spin training for other instructors that were not comfortable with it.
PS
I no longer instruct. I am a pill roller now. (pharmacist)
That is why we practice stalls and recoverys. To recognizee the onset of a stall, what conditions can create one and how to recover.
Its normal training to practice different kinds of stalls.
You stall the aircraft everytime you fly. When you land ;)
Private pilots can be and are good safe pilots. The people that have gotten killed or severly damaged aircraft in my flying club in the last few years have been professionals, military pilots and a commercial pilot. One ran out of fuel! Yes I was surprised too.
Complacency is part of the reason. Risk management is the name of the game. Listening to that little voice. Reading the NTSB reports helps create that voice. Emergency training removes the anxiety.
Fying is a bit more regimented in that it requires a higher discipline, degree of precision, and specific reflexes to address circumstance that can be encounterd during flight. Similar to the adage in military circles "one fights like one trains", a pilot's reflexes are honed through practice. Reflexes are not thought out, they are just done. Flying intrinsically is no different than driving a car. Its just that to fly a "car" one has to incorporate the operation of an elevator simultaneously with the steering wheel and gas peddle.
" Part of my learning to fly lessons were in a Piper Tomahawk....."
Good thing you had the spin training then.
Thank goodness for hard nosed instructors (young and old).
It's an unforgiving business.
When I got my fixed wing license I already had about 2000 hours of rotary wing time. With about 200 hours of FW under my belt, I took three family members for a ride in, I believe a C-172 (been a long time ago). For some reason I had it in my head that I could make smoother landings if I didn't use full flaps. The runway was long enough but I was hot and a little long. I got it stopped just before I went into the over run which was a cornfield. As I taxied back I tried to act like I meant to do that. My siblings knew better. They remind me to this day.
Due to sensitivity of engines to air entering the engine an appreciable loss of thrust available for t/o on a hot day or warm becomes readily apparent, so it is desirable to use some means of thrust augmentation,
Several different combustion variables are affected by water injection.
1st. charge cooling (denser charge, more oxygen content allows more fuel in the charge).
2nd. slowing of flame front speed (improving combustion completion - more bang per charge).
3rd. additive effect expansion (phase change from liquid to a gas ie., ratio of expansion of water from a liquid to a gas(steam) is about 600:1).
It used to be that a sure fire way of defining an aircraft using water injection on T/O is a stream of black smoke coming from the exhaust. While the CV-880 just had very smokey noisy CJ-805s, early 707's used water injection in their J-57's (same engine Buff uses), these early 707's were referred to as "Water Wagons". Early 747 aircraft with the JT-9D engines also had water injection, as did some of the old Metroliners (especially with Garrett TPE331-11 and -12 engines), although the Garret TPE331-10 did not. Many of the older 707's and DC8's with turbojets, didn't either. The heavier (intercontinental) 707 had JT4's instead of JT3's, and did not utilize water injection. A better indication of water-injection system is observation of fine water mist appearing under the belly approximatly in line with the engine intake. This is the exhaust from the turbine water pump.
The water injection system is actually a water-methanol/alcohol (60/40) mix that is sprayed at the compressor inlet or diffuser case, sometimes both are used, I'm not sure but I think on some a/c the pilot has Comp / diffuser individual selectors to control either. De-mineralised water having a total solid content not over 10 parts per million was required (any higher concentration of solids would leave deposits on the turbine blades - not a good thing to have on turbine blades).
Basically the water injection system allows the engine to operate as if it were flying at a lower density altitude. The lowered temperature allows the additional thrust to be created. The nozzels were located at the air inlet and would produse a fine mist to mix with the air so that the P2T2 tube that measures temp/pressure for the engine will now indicate a lower temp than actually exists. On Garret turboprops one would use a chart to determine the thrust available for take-off. For example, at 30 degrees celsius about 80% thrust was specified. By using the CAWI this could be increased to 100%. It was only used when you were pushing max gross weight because you are also weight restriced with the temp and runway limitations. CAWI could be used for 2 or 3 minutes before the water-alchohol was exhausted.
I knew it was a mixture of something and water. Very expensive. A number of years ago I flew the Gulfstream G-1 and with maybe 500 hours in the bird, I used it once or twice. Gave it a nice boost Those were Rolls Royce engines. Don't ask me the nomenclature.
Sad to hear about this. The closest place where they could have done an emergency landing was at Floyd Bennett Field, and even that would have been difficult as it is now a public park.
Hi, neighbor. Here's this morning's update from the Wheeling paper:
Communities, School Mourn Crash Victims
By KATIE WILSON With Wire Dispatches
McMECHEN - Students, teachers and community members gathered in front of Bishop Donohue High School Sunday to help each other grieve the loss of students JoBeth Gross, Danielle Block and her father, Courtney.
Brother Rene Roy, principal of the school, said people felt the need to meet at the school because of the school community's close-knit, family atmosphere of love, compassion and respect. We regard each other as brother and sister, he said.
"This is home, that's why people are here today," he said.
He said a tragedy like this has never occurred at the school before.
Small groups of people gathered outside the school, under a banner proclaiming the school's 50 years of excellence in Catholic education. A small memorial was set up on the school's steps, featuring brightly colored flowers, pictures of Block and Gross, and a selection of softball equipment in honor of the girls' years on the softball team.
Many of those gathered were too emotional to speak; those who could spoke of the girls' warmth, vitality and enthusiasm.
Loretta Metz, who teaches religion at the school, said the girls spent two years in her classes.
"They were builders, they didn't tear other people down," she said. "It didn't matter what you needed, they were there to help."
Metz characterized the girls as helpful and students who could find humor in almost anything.
"They were so full of joy, full of wonder, full of life," she said.
Brother John Byrd, a teacher, counselor and campus minister at the school, said the girls had a "contagious enthusiasm" for community service. They participated in numerous community service projects through the school, including three flood relief projects: two this past year in the Ohio Valley, and a third in June 2003, after their sophomore year.
He said the students and Block's parents left last Friday morning to drive to New York. On Thursday, Block and Gross participated in a day retreat for the senior class. Byrd said the retreat was voluntary, and only one student could not participate because of a seriously ill family member.
"It provided them with an opportunity to have positive closure for their senior year," he said.
Metz agreed the retreat was an important day for the seniors.
"Every student took away a gifted feeling of oneness," she said.
Roy said the school day will begin at the regularly scheduled time this morning. Classes will be replaced with prayer and counseling. Students can speak with teachers or counselors one on one, or in small groups, then they're free to go home.
The baccalaureate Mass will be held tonight, as per Jodi Block's request, Roy said. Graduation will go on as planned Tuesday, after as normal of a school day as possible.
"It's important for the kids to celebrate Danielle and JoBeth," Metz said.
The teens and two others were known as the four musketeers because they did everything together.
In fact, a third "musketeer" had initially been on the plane with her two friends but got sick and asked the pilot to take her back, Roy said. When Melissa McCulley, 18, got off, she was replaced by Danielle's father, Courtney Block, 38, a United Parcel Service truck driver.
The plane crashed about 1:30 p.m. Saturday on a sunny spring day at the popular Brooklyn beach, authorities said. Courtney and Danielle Block, Gross, and pilot Endrew Allen, 32, of Queens, were killed.
The specific cause of the crash was unknown, and the National Transportation Safety Board will investigate.
The plane was registered to RJ Ventures LLC of Paramus, N.J., and it took off earlier Saturday from the Linden Airport in New Jersey.
Jodi Block waited at the airport for her daughter and husband, as did Melissa and Melissa's mother.
Mrs. Block "suspected something was wrong when the plane didn't come back when it was supposed to," Roy said.
Danielle had just been accepted at Wheeling Jesuit University, had several scholarships, and planned to become a nurse. Gross had planned to go to Bethany College.
From today's Wheeling newspaper:
Graduates Share Tears and Joy
By JUSTIN D. ANDERSON With AP Dispatches
McMECHEN - The Bishop Donahue High School class of 2005 motto is a very simple one: "Every Ending is a New Beginning."
Fifteen seniors walked onto the stage in the school gymnasium during commencement Tuesday to accept their diplomas, but 17 were granted - two posthumously.
The mood of the commencement was balanced - at times full of joy and pride and at others sprinkled with tears.
The chairs that were to be occupied by seniors JoBeth Gross and Danielle Block were left empty and draped with white linen. The students were killed in an airplane crash Saturday at Coney Island, N.Y., along with Block's father, Courtney, 39, and pilot Endrew Allen, 32. the crash remains under investigation.
White lilies bordered the front of the stage. The families of the deceased sat solemnly in the rows behind the graduating class. Gross' father and brother, Robert and Robert Jr., and family members of Block rose and accepted the girls' diplomas and, later, two scholarship awards.
Block also was recognized as a member of the National Honor Society and as one of the top 10 students in her class.
Block's mother, Jodi, who did not attend Tuesday, was given the Champagnat Award along with two other students' parents for her commitment to service to school functions.
Beginning the commencement to the tune of "Pomp and Circumstance," members of the graduating class walked one by one down the aisle between family and friends to take their seats in the front row. Most smiled proudly in their green and gold caps and gowns as they passed their families. A few appeared sullen and distant. One elderly gentleman wept into his hands. Robert Gross rose, consoled the man and returned to his seat behind his daughter's empty chair. The elderly man continued to weep throughout the commencement.
For the Gross family, it's the latest knot in a string of heartbreaks: Gross' mother died of cancer nearly seven years ago, her grandfather is dying of cancer now, and her father is permanently disabled from a work-related accident. Two years ago, Gross' aunt was shot to death, and a year before that, a flood destroyed the Gross family home.
Robert Gross planned to borrow money to pay for his daughter's funeral, but the small, financially struggling school stepped in.
Run by the Marist Brothers, Bishop Donahue has just 80 students in grades 9-12 and has racked up about $500,000 in debts in recent years. The school charges Catholic students $2,400 and non-Catholics $3,500 for tuition. The actual costs of education is $7,000 per student.
On Tuesday the school began soliciting donations for the funeral costs.
Retiring Principal Brother Rene Roy said remaining funds will be used for a tuition assistance fund in the students' names. If it grows large enough, it will become an endowment that could either reduce debt or lower tuition rates so more students can enroll.
During the commencement ceremony, Roy told the students that the past week has presented more of a challenge to them than they could wish upon their worst enemies.
"We are attempting to break through the clouds of grief and sorrow that have been forced upon us by the tragic deaths of our sisters, Danielle and JoBeth, and our brother, Courtney," Roy said. "We will rise again as a family - stronger than ever in the values that really matter."
Roy pointed out to the seniors that both he and they are moving into "uncharted waters" of their lives. Quoting the late Pope John Paul II, Roy urged the students: "Be not afraid." He advised them not to lose their relationship with God and to remember that "life is short; eternity will never end."
In the past few days, Roy said, it should have been evident to the students that much of their education comes from others. From the brief lives of Gross and Block, the students and adults should learn "how to insert ourselves totally in what we do."
"We have learned not to take each other for granted," Roy added.
Class Salutatorian Caroline Fay Horacek began her speech with a quote from Charles Dickens: "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times."
"I think this is appropriate for our graduation," Horacek said, reminding her classmates that two of their own would not be joining them in their endeavors into adulthood.
"This year's been one of the best," Horacek said. "I thank my classmates for that."
She talked about each of her classmates, sometimes joking and causing laughter among the audience, telling them what each had taught her. When she got to Block and Gross, she said the two "helped more people in 18 years than most of us ever will."
Horacek ended her speech with a passage from Dr. Seuss' poem, "Oh, the Places You'll Go!"
"Congratulations. Today is your day. You're off to great places. You're off and away ..."
At this point in the poem, Horacek broke down and wept, struggling with the rest of the words.
Valedictorian Marissa Anne Smith told her classmates they hold an "unbelievable amount of potential to make a difference in our world" and commented on the students' strong work ethic.
She told the seniors they must maintain their strength and identities through all the tragedies of their lives, especially the one they are experiencing right now. She went on to thank her friends for accepting her as she is.
Smith, too, talked about her friends and family by name, telling them of the things she's learned from each one.
"It seems so unfair that Danielle and JoBeth were not allowed to sit today with the rest of the graduates," Smith said. "However, I do hope that JoBeth and Danielle are with us now, watching over us. Both of their lives were too short.
"They have left a tremendous mark on the world."
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