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GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY : Gun lobby threatens our very way of life
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ^ | May 13 | Josh Horowitz

Posted on 05/21/2005 10:42:38 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan

CSGV: GUN CULTURE THREATENS DEMOCRACY

Op-Ed Challenges "Guns Equal Freedom" Formula

Gun lobby threatens our very way of life

The price extracted by guns is simply too high

By JOSH HORWITZ
SPECIAL TO THE REVIEW-JOURNAL

When the National Rifle Association's top lobbyist, Wayne LaPierre, addresses the crowd at "FreedomFest 2005" at the Bally's/Paris Resort in Las Vegas today, he will be preaching a message that has served his organization well: guns equal freedom.

As LaPierre puts it, "The Second Amendment is the fulcrum of freedom in our nation, because freedom and the Second Amendment are mutually interdependent. They are the 'chicken and the egg;' neither can exist without the other."

LaPierre can expect a friendly reception from the right wing activists at FreedomFest. Aggressive support for gun rights provokes none of the intramural squabbling that sometimes threatens to divide social conservatives and their libertarian allies in the GOP.

By framing the gun debate as a choice between protecting liberty and the illusion of safety, the gun lobby has painted itself as a defender of basic American values.

Too often, gun control advocates walk into the trap and concede that values like democracy and independence must be sacrificed to fight gun crime.

"At what point will Americans agree that the price exacted by guns -- the gun lobby's 'price of freedom' -- is simply too high?" asks Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center.

This formulation is not smart politics, because Americans rightly treasure freedom. More importantly, it fails to hold LaPierre and the gun lobby accountable for a philosophy that is at odds with freedom and the institutions that support it.

The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away. The new law goes far beyond self-defense, which was already a well-established right in Florida, to invite vigilantes to substitute their judgment for the judicial system.

David Kopel, a leading gun rights theorist, acknowledges the potential tension between an expansive right of self defense like the one embodied in the new Florida statute and the rule of law, but dismisses the concern out of hand, arguing that "people's taking the law into their own hands has always been a core principle of the American legal system, and the American attitude toward guns is simply one manifestation of that principle."

This warped conception of popular sovereignty is at the root of the most egregious anti- democratic proposition advanced by the gun lobby: that citizens need to arm themselves to safeguard political liberties against threats by the government.

Kopel has called guns "the tools of political dissent," and LaPierre wrote in 1994 that "the people have a right, must have a right, to take whatever measures necessary, including force, to abolish oppressive government."

As famed legal scholar Roscoe Pound observed, however, "A legal right of the citizen to wage war on the government is something that cannot be admitted. ... [because] bearing arms today is a very different thing from what it was in the days of the embattled farmers who withstood the British in 1775. In the urban industrial society of today a general right to bear arms so as to be able to resist oppression by the Government would mean that gangs could defeat the whole Bill of Rights."

The standoffs at Ruby Ridge and Waco -- often cited as proof that the government can and does abuse its power -- illustrate why armed resistance is a dead end. Randy Weaver and David Koresh may have had good reasons to distrust the government, but they had no right to use private arsenals to keep the police at bay. Our system includes democratic safeguards, such as juries, that do not rely on the private force of arms.

After the Oklahoma City bombing, the gun lobby toned down its rhetoric, casting an armed citizenry as a deterrent to oppression rather than a potential rebel force against a democratic government. "The Second Amendment is America's first freedom because it is the one right that protects all the others," LaPierre says.

This argument sounds reasonable but is no different in substance that what gun rights absolutists were saying before Oklahoma City. If they believe in the right to take up arms to resist government policies they consider oppressive, even when these policies have been adopted by elected officials and subjected to review by an independent judiciary, then they are opposed to constitutional democracy.

When LaPierre talks about guns and freedom, he wraps himself in a flag that the NRA is simultaneously ripping to shreds. Protecting vigilantes from criminal prosecution and urging citizens to stockpile weapons for a showdown with the government are more than just threats to public safety -- they are threats to our democracy and our way of life.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; cary; freedom; guns; sas
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To: Mark
Just the talk of GUNS gives me the heeby-jeebies. I'm so frightened.( /Lib weenie squeal)

Now, now, it's not nice to make fun of our liberal friends. They only want to protect us from the law-abiding.

41 posted on 05/21/2005 11:27:39 PM PDT by Tabi Katz
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To: The_Macallan

Save for the quotes. Thanks.


42 posted on 05/21/2005 11:28:48 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Dig deeper, more ammo.)
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To: Dan from Michigan
"The most recent example of the tension came last month, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill that allows people to use deadly force -- including guns -- when faced with a violent threat, even when a confrontation could be avoided by simply walking away. The new law goes far beyond self-defense, which was already a well-established right in Florida, to invite vigilantes to substitute their judgment for the judicial system. "

Florida eliminated it's "requirement to run" law, and I believe adapted Texas law that says basically that any legally armed citizen is not required to run. If you feel that your life is being threatened, you can use deadly force, and this has not caused any problems in Texas.

43 posted on 05/21/2005 11:30:12 PM PDT by de Buillion (Jerusalem, 1099)
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To: Bostton1; All
Q.) Did the camp inmates ever bring up the topic, "If only we were armed before, we would not be here now"?

A.) Many, many times. Before Adolph Hitler came to power, there was a black market in firearms, but the German people had been so conditioned to be law abiding, that they would never consider buying an unregistered gun. The German people really believed that only hoodlums own such guns. What fools we were. It truly frightens me to see how the government, media, and some police groups in America are pushing for the same mindset. In my opinion, the people of America had better start asking and demanding answers to some hard questions about firearms ownership, especially if the government does not trust me to own firearms, why or how can the people be expected to trust the government?

There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people were not "brainwashed" about gun ownership and had been well armed. Hitler's thugs and goons were not very brave when confronted by a gun. Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which is a perfect example of how a ragtag, half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazis.

~~~~~~

I agree, use an alias. But join the NRA. Everyone...

44 posted on 05/21/2005 11:37:21 PM PDT by Brad’s Gramma (Yo! Cowboy! I'm praying for a LoganMiracle! It CAN happen!!!!)
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To: Billthedrill
"Weaver's wife was murdered as a result. If this is the "way of life" that's being threatened then I'm all for that."

If I remember correctly, the federales paid Randy $3 million for murdering his wife, son, and dog. Great people, these FBI Snipers!

45 posted on 05/21/2005 11:43:23 PM PDT by de Buillion (Jerusalem, 1099)
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To: goldstategop
[They don't like a lawfully armed government either. They hate cops and they hate soldiers with an equal passion. If you asked them a situation in which force can be lawfully employed, they probably couldn't think of one. Yep, they're consistent there.]


Reminds me of a conversation I had with a self described "proud liberal" about a week or so ago.

She said she hated guns and hated bombs. Her moral beliefs told her that it is wrong to use violence to solve your problems. She was even more enthusiastic in her hatred for President Bush. She hates him because he uses the military of this country to kill people, and even though it may bring democracy to a former dictatorial country and stop atrocities from happening (as she acknowledged in Afghanistan, if not Iraq) it is still never worth the price of using force to kill people she said.

She then told me that she wished someone would KILL GEORGE BUSH and that it would have been great if that hand grenade that was found (in the crowd at the Georgian speech) would have exploded, killing the President.

It's amazing that anyone can say something so obviously hypocritical and not realize it, but I've come to the realization that ALL pacifists are living a life of enormous hypocrisy. If you want to live your life in peace and not anarchy, then you need to accept that force (personal or by proxy) is mandatory, and if you want justice, then you need to make sure the ones who employ the greatest force are the good guys.
46 posted on 05/21/2005 11:54:35 PM PDT by spinestein
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To: Dan from Michigan
Josh, if you're really serious about changing things, feel free to go out there and confiscate all those guns on your own.
47 posted on 05/21/2005 11:55:57 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: goldstategop
The two "G" words that make liberals scream running for the hills: God and Guns!

The two "G" words they do like are Gays, and Globalization.
48 posted on 05/21/2005 11:57:36 PM PDT by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: spinestein
They do make an exception. Its kosher to murder conservatives. And this from folks who pride themselves on being non-judgmental and compassionate to others. I guess every one needs a bete noire. For the Left, its folks who watch The Dukes Of Hazzard.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
49 posted on 05/21/2005 11:57:46 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: mc6809e
>> Thug gun culture is a threat.

It is indeed. I want to buy a shiny new bar or m1a1, and the wife is going to severely maim me if I do... I abhor violence, especially when committed upon my person by a loved one.

I can't even get upset over the gun control weenies anymore; hopefully they will exterminate themselves via their own foolish notions. Lets let those who live off of the mentality they (gun controllers) perpetuate eat till they pop.

I just want a new rifle and a couple of days at the rage.

Bang, bang... She is not going to let me get my bar... because she is evil... and will shoot me with it...//sss
50 posted on 05/21/2005 11:58:50 PM PDT by mmercier (don't bring a pistol to the revolution)
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To: ARCADIA
Err... that would be Gomorrah and Global Warming. Lefties hate "globalization," which to them is code for unfettered world-wide American-style capitalism.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
51 posted on 05/22/2005 12:00:18 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: spinestein
"She then told me that she wished someone would KILL GEORGE BUSH and that it would have been great if that hand grenade that was found (in the crowd at the Georgian speech) would have exploded, killing the President. "

I sincerely believe that you have a moral AND legal obligation to contact Homeland Security.

52 posted on 05/22/2005 12:04:01 AM PDT by de Buillion (Jerusalem, 1099)
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To: spinestein
She said she hated guns and hated bombs. Her moral beliefs told her that it is wrong to use violence to solve your problems. She was even more enthusiastic in her hatred for President Bush. She hates him because he uses the military of this country to kill people, ... it is still never worth the price of using force to kill people she said.

She then told me that she wished someone would KILL GEORGE BUSH...

It's amazing that anyone can say something so obviously hypocritical and not realize it...

Just goes to show beyond any logical doubt; liberals _feel_ the penalty for disagreeing with them should be death.

53 posted on 05/22/2005 12:05:34 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: The_Macallan

[ Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."
~ John F. Kennedy, April 1960. ]


I have an observation about this quote. I agree that "it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation" this is ONLY true if the citizens are always well armed. Take away the only tool of force to guard our own freedoms and the "governmental tyranny" will quickly follow.


54 posted on 05/22/2005 12:06:56 AM PDT by spinestein
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To: Dan from Michigan
josh (w)hor(e)witz
55 posted on 05/22/2005 12:11:32 AM PDT by freepatriot32 (If you want to change government support the libertarian party www.lp.org)
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To: Joe Brower; Travis McGee

ping


56 posted on 05/22/2005 12:16:47 AM PDT by freepatriot32 (If you want to change government support the libertarian party www.lp.org)
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To: Dan from Michigan
I don't think I needed to put a puke alert

Pardon me if I go ahead and puke anyway.

57 posted on 05/22/2005 12:16:53 AM PDT by ARepublicanForAllReasons (Don't worry. My suit is triple-flameproof)
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To: Dan from Michigan
"As LaPierre puts it, "The Second Amendment is the fulcrum of freedom in our nation, because freedom and the Second Amendment are mutually interdependent. They are the 'chicken and the egg;' neither can exist without the other.""

So what part of that statement can't the commies/socialists/gun-grabbing fascists/fabian/gramsciites understand?

" . . . they are threats to our democracy and our way of life.", says Horrorwits.

Of course they are! They are supposed to be. Take 'your way of life' and 'democracy' and set up shop in another country, stupid. We'll keep our Republic -- one way or another. Count on it!

58 posted on 05/22/2005 12:20:03 AM PDT by Eastbound (Jacked out since 3/31/05)
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To: Dan from Michigan

So Josh, just what is it you have in mind for me, that you're so damned worried about me having a gun?? Hmmm?


59 posted on 05/22/2005 12:23:39 AM PDT by Waco
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To: Dan from Michigan

"Citizens need to be armed
to protect themselves against
a tyrannical government."

                -- Senator Ted Kennedy



60 posted on 05/22/2005 12:28:32 AM PDT by devolve ( That Music Still Continues: http://pro.lookingat.us/ElvisLive.html - more traffic than DU-Koz-LDot)
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