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Creation Museum Sparks Evolution Debate
RedNova ^ | 22 May 2005 | Staff

Posted on 05/23/2005 3:29:06 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: RadioAstronomer

i have looked and haven't found anything. Maybe he thinks he's leading us on a merry chase.

Pitiful.


601 posted on 05/24/2005 4:10:03 PM PDT by furball4paws (One of the last Evil Geniuses, or the first of their return.)
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To: furball4paws
I've been dismayed in the last 14 or so years to see the extent to which people will make a deliberately bad argument and smirk in your face while you struggle with "Where to begin?" Noticed it first with liberals, then noticed it's a staple of creationism.

Anyway, yes. People do that on purpose, bludgeoning YOU with THEIR ignorance and illogic. Twist and Shout. Creative misunderstanding. Willful ignorance.

A sure sign that the enterprise is rotten to the core.

602 posted on 05/24/2005 4:10:35 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: RadioAstronomer
Does the oven's magnetron generate the same frequency as the speed of light?"

;-)

603 posted on 05/24/2005 4:12:40 PM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Does the oven's magnetron generate the same frequency as the speed of light?

Well, Kenneth, speed is not a frequency. You should learn basic terminology. [VI=ON]

604 posted on 05/24/2005 4:15:22 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
Frequency and velocity are not synonymous.

But Fester made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs.

605 posted on 05/24/2005 4:15:48 PM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Not only clueless, the rest of the creationists are supporting him by their silence. Maybe they are that clueless. It may not be wrong to assume that their religious knowledge is of the same quality as their scientific knowledge and should be treated equivalently.


606 posted on 05/24/2005 4:18:46 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Gumlegs
Give it up. Fester wants "immutable facts."

In certain fields of knowledge immutable facts are inevitable and necessary. In others they are not, and should not be expected. Your assertion that I would maintain one must see the origins of human flight to believe it exists is a preposterous non-sequitur. If you truly think I must maintain such a position to be consistent, then you should be the last person whom I might expect to see as a participant in rational discourse.

Perhaps if Einstein read your words he would substitute the speed of dumb for the speed of light. In fact, Fester hereby postulates on Einstein's behalf that the speed of dumb far surpasses the speed of light in both amplitude and frequency, as demonstrated by it's pernicious effects on public schools, the Democratic Party, and the proponents of the philosophy of evolution who continually confuse philosophy with science, all of whom have been rendered a muddle of hapless mediocrity.

While I count it a disconcerting experience to live in an age that must witness the speed of dumb in a vaccuum, yet I count it a joy to be called names by those who toil and sweat that we might benefit both directly and indirectly from their self-indulgent pursuits.

607 posted on 05/24/2005 4:19:06 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: js1138
Kessel run in 12 parsecs.

The most glaring mistake in all of Star Wars! LMAO!

608 posted on 05/24/2005 4:25:30 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: Fester Chugabrew
You further mischaracterize my attitude toward learning as one of deliberate ignorance.

I don't think so. I think it's the basis of your entire argument.

No. It is a failure on your part to comprehend the relationship between faith and facts. Is it not you who said "I trust my own understanding of physics?". But I should expect as much from those who fail to distinguish between immutable fact and reasonable conjecture and then set themselves up as preachers in the classroom.

If you refuse to acquaint yourself with facts, and in fact ignore or reject them when presented, of course you will be unable to distinguish between facts and conjecture. And if you can't distinguish between faith and facts, of course you won't be able to tell the difference between a teacher and a preacher. And that is your goal; to be able to claim that they are indistinguishable.

Argumentum ad stupidum. The only way you can sustain it is by clinging to your ignorance, or feigned ignorance. You're clearly not stupid; you write literately, make no or very few spelling and grammatical errors, and don't seem particularly ill-informed, except about science. I don't believe ignorance could be that selective. Yours is an assumed and false position.

609 posted on 05/24/2005 4:27:52 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Well, Kenneth, speed is not a frequency . . .

Obviously my question was phrased in such a way as to cause turmoil and delight among the faithful. Let me phrase it differently:

Does the oven's magnetron generate any wave length within the ~700nm to ~400nm range? I gather it does not.

610 posted on 05/24/2005 4:29:19 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Doctor Stochastic; js1138; RadioAstronomer; VadeRetro
I still think we should do with with the Jovian moons. A telescope and clock will do the job. No need to worry about wavelengths and frequencies. And we'd be doing it with "real light," not this microwave stuff. Not only that, but because the measurements need to be made over a period of probably six months, to get some extra distance between us and Jupiter, we could keep this thread going nearly forever. But then, we'd probably have endless arguments about the "assumption on faith" that the solar system exists. Might be too much work.
611 posted on 05/24/2005 4:29:50 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
If they're the same thing how come I can see one, but not the other?

Because your eyes are sensitive to wavelengths between 700nm-450nm.

At any rate, I think you are saying every wave within the electromagnetic spectrum travels at the speed of light. Yes?

Yes. Up to the point where the refractive index of the transmission medium becomes a factor.
At the frequencies we're talking about, air @20°C has a refractive index of 1.00029 or about 0.03% slower than it's speed in a vacuum (index=1.0).
For completeness:

lf = c/n

Where:
l - the wavelength
f - the frequency
c - the speed of light
n - refractive index

Since n is essentially equal to 1 ...

lf = c/1 or lf = c.

612 posted on 05/24/2005 4:31:28 PM PDT by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

We are being led by a nose ring here IMHO.

I am done with my grade school science class on this thread.


613 posted on 05/24/2005 4:33:28 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: RadioAstronomer
We are being led by a nose ring here IMHO.

No doubt, but I think a point has been made.

And I'm going to put some chocolate in the microwave when I get home. I want to see if it actually works.

614 posted on 05/24/2005 4:35:54 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: PatrickHenry
Apparently there is a source of error from astronomical perturbations of the Jovian moons by each other and other bodies. Not that you can't do it at all (Roemer did it in the late 1600s) but that it's only so accurate.
615 posted on 05/24/2005 4:35:58 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: RadioAstronomer; js1138
> Kessel run ...

The most glaring mistake in all of Star Wars! LMAO!

Thanks for the mental anchor. I was wondering if 'Kessel run' was some kind of Skinner maze ...

616 posted on 05/24/2005 4:39:56 PM PDT by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic; js1138

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.

how long did it take "science" to catch up to the Bible?


617 posted on 05/24/2005 4:43:21 PM PDT by flevit
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To: Right Wing Professor
If you refuse to acquaint yourself with facts, and in fact ignore or reject them when presented, of course you will be unable to distinguish between facts and conjecture.

From my standpoint as an observer, until a proposition is verified personally it remains a proposition that I must accede to by faith. There are many scientific propositions and immutable facts to which I have acceded, among them the current speed of light, the law of gravity, human flight, etc. Some of them I have witnessed directly.

If I tell you what is the speed of light, I am telling you what I believe. When RA tells me the speed of light, he is telling me what he knows and accepts as immutable fact. I can accept that because the data is operable and available in the present day. Furthermore, I trust he has gathered the knowledge accurately, and shared it without distortion. Since I have not gathered the knowledge and tested it myself, I am relying upon the testimony of someone else. What shame is in that?

So too, when a text that has been handed down for hundreds of generations makes the proposition that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," I accede to that proposition not only because of its wide acceptance, but also because it makes sense to attribute all the information available to my reason and senses (not to mention my reason and senses themselves) to an agent of intelligent design. What shame is in that?

618 posted on 05/24/2005 4:44:16 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: VadeRetro; RadioAstronomer
Apparently there is a source of error from astronomical perturbations of the Jovian moons by each other and other bodies. Not that you can't do it at all (Roemer did it in the late 1600s) but that it's only so accurate.

Right. It's just a rough measurement. Greater precision can be achieved, but not without better equipment and some extra work. I suppose you could get a cleaner data set with one of the planets that has fewer moons. Mars would probably do, but then you'd need a better telescope. I suspect this gets done all the time. RA would know if we do it with the signals from the Martian probes.

619 posted on 05/24/2005 4:46:04 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: dread78645

Thank you.

Has the entire electromagnetic spectrum been discovered and explored by science? Why is it necessary to assume "nothing is faster than the speed of light in a vaccuum?"


620 posted on 05/24/2005 4:52:45 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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