The Coming and Going of Glaciers: A New Alpine Melt Theory

Der Spiegel ^ | May 23, 2005 | By Hilmar Schmundt

[doodad]

Geological definition. We are in an interglacial period and should expect up and down behavior.

[wildbill]

Despite the findings all over the world that climate has changed dramatically in cycles, the Kyoto sponsors are sure its all Bush's fault.

[Fiji Hill]

This is ridiculous. There are no "cycles", global warming is caused by Republicans, and George Bush in particular.

In that case, global warming in the days of ancient Rome must have been caused by Cato the Younger, Marcus Cicero, and other champions of the Roman Republic.

[JerseyHighlander]

So Hannibal lost all his elephants except two because of incompetence, not because of the glacial winter snows?

He most have had a good publicist back in Carthage. 2000+ years later and school kids still learn of Hannibal's trek through the glaciers.

[GoLightly]

The global warming on Mars would support your claim that it is the Sun.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_snow_011206-1.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_ice-age_031208.html

They've found that our southern ice cap is growing. Ignore the hysterical conclusion that they've drawn from it or do what I do & laugh. I went to school in the 60's & 70's. Back then, the doom & gloom hysteria was all about a coming ice age. Course, all of that is now ancient history.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/world/epaper/2005/05/20/a17a_icecap_0520.html

Still, remember back to what they taught you when you were a child about the Earth's seasonal climate change. Did they tell you about tilt variations & wobbles, not to mention orbital oddities?

http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/050330_earth_tilt.html

[kabar]

If you read the material on the entire link, you will see how ice ages come about according to Felix. According to him and the data cited, ice ages are a natural occcurence and predictable. There is a point where gradually changing conditions reach critical mass and an ice age ensues. Felix believes that we are now experiencing ocean warming (vice global warming) due to increased underwater volcanic activity. Increase water temperatures release more CO2 into the atmosphere thereby increasing precipitation. When the increased rainfall turns to snow, a rapid onset of a new ice age is the result.

Current data seem to support Felix's contention. We have increased precipitation with 99% of the world's glaciers increasing in size, increased ocean warming caused by underwater volcanic activity, a decrease in ocean levels, magnetic pole reversal, and cooling temperatures.

I have read his book,Not by fire, but By Ice, and found Felix's arguments compelling and persuasive. Bascially, he is saying man has very little to do with climate change and we are not heading into a period of global warming, but rather, a new ice age.

[Mike Darancette]

he is saying man has very little to do with climate change and we are not heading into a period of global warming, but rather, a new ice age.

With that, I would concur 100%.

The dogma that the Earth is warming due to man's ecological sins would seem to be a religious belief.

[ken21]

bttt.

[Swordmaker]

magnetic pole reversal,

The electromagnet that is the Earth is currently losing its magnetic field at an accelerated rate... I just had an interesting thought come to mind when you posted your comment.

If the magnetic field is decreasing (observations around the world say it is) but the mechanism for its creation still exists, unchanged, WHERE is the energy that DID create and maintain the higher Gauss field now? It has to evince itself somewhere. Could it be in a different form (law of conservation of energy) in the form of a generalized heat??? Hmmmmmm.

[HitmanLV]

All I know is that the army dropped The Blob in the Arctic, and Steve McQueen said we would all be ok, as long as the Arctic stays cold!

[Swordmaker]

Getting back to energy, all that ice requires lots of BTUs to form... the water must be brought into the atmosphere, transported to the poles or higher mountains to fall as precipitation and, so long as the local temperature in those areas stays below 32ºF, freeze, building up glaciers and ice caps.

If this is happening, then it requires either more heat or lower atmospheric pressure to evaporate water off the oceans and put it into the atmosphere to form water saturated clouds. If geology is any indicator, the ice forms fairly quickly, indicating large amounts of water being delivered fairly rapidly. "Global Warming" may be the mechanish that does indeed cause ice ages.

[djf]

The problem with any global warming due to atmosphere changes is that it ignores something much bigger.

The oceans.

Worldwide, if you go below the thermocline, the water temp drops to about forty degrees.

The amount of "cold" there, (as opposed to me saying the amount of heat), vastly, vastly exceeds any effect of the atmosphere.

[kabar]

If this is happening, then it requires either more heat or lower atmospheric pressure to evaporate water off the oceans and put it into the atmosphere to form water saturated clouds.

It's not Global Warming, it's Ocean Warming

"Research shows that there was "a sudden and dramatic rise" in carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere at the dinosaur extinction of 65 million years ago. A recent report attributes the rise in CO2 levels to an asteroid impact. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2038599.stm"

"I disagree. I think today's rise in CO2 levels can be attributed to our warming oceans. After all, the oceans are known as a carbon dioxide "sink," especially when the water is cold."

"But as the water warms up, it releases CO2 into the atmosphere. This happens in much the same way that a warm bottle of home-brewed root beer will release CO2. And if you give that CO2 no way to escape, the bottle will explode."

"We've got it backwards. We've got cause and effect in reverse."

"The CO2 is not causing global warming. Instead, our warming oceans are releasing CO2 into the atmosphere."

"It's not global warming, it's ocean warming, and it's leading us into an ice age."

[djf]

I'm not sure, but I think most of the CO2 in the oceans isn't dissolved gasses, but is Calcium Carbonate. Clamshells, limestone, various diatoms.

[kabar]

CO2 is a gas. CACO3 is a solid. Most of the CO2 in sea water is in the form of bicarbonate HCO3. Some of the important atmospheric gases found in seawater include: nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide (in the form of bicarbonate HCO3), argon, helium, and neon. Compared to the other atmospheric gases, the amount of carbon dioxide dissolved in saturated seawater is unusually large.

There is an exchange of carbon dioxide between the atmosphere and the ocean’s surface. Carbon dioxide dissolves in the ocean and provides the source of carbon dioxide that plants and plankton living in the ocean rely on for photosynthesis. The amount of carbon dioxide the ocean can contain depends on the temperature of the water and on its saltiness (whether it is sea water or fresh water). Cold water can hold more carbon dioxide in solution than warm water. When carbon dioxide dissolves in water, it forms carbonic acid which makes the water acidic. In the lab we can test for the acidity caused by the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide using Universal Indicator, which turns yellow when the solution is acidic. This activity tests whether sea water or fresh water absorbs more carbon dioxide. Sea water can absorb more carbon dioxide than fresh water without having major environmental effects.

[djf]

Well, you know what I mean, it's been fixed.
I'm not sure how thick the deposits are on the ocean floor above the bedrock, but it's probably in the hundreds of meters range.
Thats alot of locked up CO2.

[SunkenCiv]

"Felix believes that we are now experiencing ocean warming (vice global warming) due to increased underwater volcanic activity. Increase water temperatures release more CO2 into the atmosphere thereby increasing precipitation. When the increased rainfall turns to snow, a rapid onset of a new ice age is the result."

The oceans aren't warming at depth. CO2 doesn't increase precipitation. And if it were to increase precipitation (through so-called greenhouse warming) the temperatures would be too high for the snow to stick around all summer.

That last feature is a necessity for glaciation through gradual causes.

[SunkenCiv]

Aye, that's the problem. Less energy (say, through a cloud of dust from a so-called supervolcano eruption) reaching the oceans will alter the hydrologic cycle. Precipitation depends on evaporation, and there's simply no way for a natural process to cloud over the land (to prevent melting of the snow that continues to fall) while not clouding over the oceans (in order to produce the precipitation).

[SunkenCiv]

---

---

Not by Fire but by Ice: Discover What Killed the Dinosaurs... and Why It Could Soon Kill Us by Robert W. Felix 1997 edition

---

[Drammach]

On the third day he captured a Gallic town and provided the army from its stores with rations for two or three days.
Harassed by the daytime attentions of the Gauls from the heights and mistrusting the loyalty of his Gallic guides, Hannibal bivouacked on a large bare rock to cover the passage by night of his horses and pack animals in the gorge below.
Snow was falling on the summit of the pass, making the descent even more treacherous.
Upon the hardened ice of the previous year's fall, the soldiers and animals alike slid and foundered in the fresh snow.
A landslide blocked the narrow track, and the army was held up for one day while it was cleared. Finally on the 15th day, after a journey of five months from Cartagena, with 20,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, and only a few of the original 38 elephants, Hannibal descended into Italy, having surmounted the difficulties of climate and terrain, the guerrilla tactics of inaccessible tribes, and the major difficulty of commanding a body of men diverse in race and language under conditions to which they were ill fitted. Hannibal was subsequently able to increase the size of his army to about 30,000 by recruiting Gauls.

Hannibal - Punic Wars