Posted on 06/22/2005 2:30:43 PM PDT by fight_truth_decay
AURORA GENERAL ADVERTISER, Philadelphia, February 1, 1802 This issue contains on page 2 a contemporary newspaper printing of the famous Thomas Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptist Association regarding the separation of church and state, reading in part:
"...believing with you that religion is a matter which lies soley between Man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith of his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties..." with more.
The GENERAL ADVERTISER was a leading Jeffersonian newspaper in America & it seems likely the text of the letter was submitted by Jefferson himself. Indeed, Jefferson intended the letter (a reply to the Association's congratulations on his election) to be a political statement. After this and only one other known newspaper printing the text of the letter was not published until 1853 in a collected edition of Jefferson's writings. The phrase "wall of separation between Church & State" remains to this day a controversial statement and is among the more notable utterances of the 19th century.
The issue is complete in 4 pages, has a professional archival mend near the top of page 2, not close to the Jefferson letter, and is otherwise in very nice condition. An identical issue of this same newspaper recently sold in a New York auction gallery for $10,350.
$9,750.00
I thought a peruse of some of these newspapers (the above recently required) might hold some "feeling" of the time in which these historical events took place. Interesting papers for a parallel news read.
Old news, but still timely.
http://www.rarenewspapers.com/ HOME INDEX LINK
Don't ever let anyone tell you that jefferson was a deist, or atheist. He was a Christian Unitarian who prayed to God for divine intervention in daily life.
It should also be understood that Baptists led the charge for religious freedom and the Bill of Rights.
I'm in for $10.
We can make a fascimile for sale to enthusiasts and recover most of the investment.
Note that Jefferson did not contemplate "hate" crimes. Acts not opinions. I wonder if the ACLU will pursue that one very far?
Jefferson's letter is just that, a letter. He was not involved in the constitutional convention, and had nothing to do with the Bill of Rights -- being in France on both occasions. His letter was written 14 years after the Bill of Rights were adopted. And several of the states ratifying the Bill of Rights actually had official state religions. I am not obviously not arguing for a return to that, but the point is that if today's "separation of church and state" viewpoint existed back then, the Bill of Rights never would have been ratified by the states, including the states that had official religions. And a few days after writing this letter, Jefferson went to the House of Representatives for morning prayer, as he did frequently as president. But this is, nonetheless, a fascinating link.
Except 'hate crimes' of course. /sarc
Nothing to do with the Bill of Rights?
"I disapproved from the first moment... the want of a bill of rights [in the new Constitution] to guard liberty against the legislative as well as the executive branches of the government." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789. ME 7:300
"I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land and not by the law of nations." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:387
"A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular; and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inferences." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:388, Papers 12:440
"The general voice from north to south... calls for a bill of rights. It seems pretty generally understood that this should go to juries, habeas corpus, standing armies, printing, religion and monopolies. I conceive there may be difficulty in finding general modifications of these suited to the habits of all the States. But if such cannot be found, then it is better to establish trials by jury, the right of habeas corpus, freedom of the press, and freedom of religion, in all cases, and to abolish standing armies in time of peace, and monopolies in all cases, than not to do it in any. The few cases wherein these things may do evil cannot be weighed against the multitude wherein the want of them will do evil." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:96
"It astonishes me to find... [that so many] of our countrymen... should be contented to live under a system which leaves to their governors the power of taking from them the trial by jury in civil cases, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of commerce, the habeas corpus laws, and of yoking them with a standing army. This is a degeneracy in the principles of liberty... which I [would not have expected for at least] four centuries." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1788. (*) FE 5:3
"I consider all the ill as established which may be established. I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away." --Thomas Jefferson to Uriah Forrest, 1787. ME 6:388, Papers 12:477
"I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98
Unless, of course, you commit a "hate" crime.
bookmark bump
In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -- James Madison, 4 Annals of congress 179 (1794)
James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, elaborated upon this limitation in a letter to James Robertson: With respect to the two words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators. If the words obtained so readily a place in the "Articles of Confederation," and received so little notice in their admission into the present Constitution, and retained for so long a time a silent place in both, the fairest explanation is, that the words, in the alternative of meaning nothing or meaning everything, had the former meaning taken for granted.
"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." --Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute of Religious Freedom, 1779
Oh my.... that's a good thing to remember in future arguments with liberals (and there will be future arguments. I teach at LAUSD. I am surrounded by them.)
Congressman Billybob
That brings abortion to mind.
However, the writing of the Bill of Rights had nothing to do with Jefferson. The state ratifying conventions depended some 200 amendments as the price of ratifying the Constitution. All those requests were turned over to James Madison, newly elected Member of Congress from Virginia.
Madison boiled those down to 17 amendments which passed the House. The Senate then passed 12 of those, of which the States ratified 11. That is not an error. The Bill of Rights contains 11 Amendments, not 10. (See the history of the 27th Amendment, also known as the Madison Amendment.)
Congressman Billybob
Yes, he was, by his own profession. I stated also he was a Unitarian christian. Unitarian Christians (not unitarian universalists, a big difference) do not believe in the divinity of Christ. They do not believe in the Trinity. But they are Christians much like those who lived 300 years before the Catholic church was established. They followed Christ and spread the Gospels.
Jefferson also referred to himself as a rational Christian. But he was a disciple of Christ and hoped that the entire world could one day be Christian.
"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus Himself. I am Christian in the only sense He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others..."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 21 1803 to Benjamin Rush
"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am real Christian; that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Jan 9, 1816 letter to Charles Thomson.
"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to men..."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Nov 4, 1820 letter to Jared Sparks
"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus." -- Thomas Jefferson, Writings, Vol XIII pg 377
"Had the doctrines of Jesus always been preached always as pure as they came from His lips the whole civilized world would now have been Christians."
-- Thomas Jefferson. Tyron Edwards New Dictionary of Thoughts- A Cyclopaedia of Quotations (1852) p.91
"I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."
-- Thomas Jefferson. Tyron Edwards New Dictionary of Thoughts- A Cyclopaedia of Quotations (1852) p.46
-- Thomas Jefferson, Life of Jefferson, by Stephen Abbot Northropp pp252-253
- The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend to the happiness of man.
- There is only One God and He is all perfect.
- There is a future state of rewards and punishment.
- To love God with all the heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of all.
"No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason and its advance towards rational Christianity, and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed from His lips, the whole world would at this day been Christian.... Had there never been a commentor there never would have been an infidel. I have little doubt that the whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Library of American Literature, Vol III pp 283-284 Stephen Abbot Northrop
"The Christian Religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity to its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Mar 23rd, 1801 letter to Moses Robinson
That and SO many others...We are socialistic now and I fear there is no hope of regaining the original intent at the voting booth...it was a nice idea while it lasted, though.
Most history books written in the past 40 years have taken great pains to expurge the influence of Christianity on the founding fathers.
Few people today know that John Leland used to be considered one of the top 5 most important founding fathers. Why? He fought and won the Bill of Rights for the Constitution. Madison refused to insert a BoR until Baptist Preacher John Leland "forced" him to include it by running against him in Orange county and acquiring sufficient votes to win. lelalnd wrote a letter of 10 points on which to establish a Bill of Rights, the most important of which was freedom of religion, and promised to back out of the race and throw his votes to Madison if Madison promised to include the BoR in the Constitution.
A Baptist preacher is singularly most responsible for freedom of religion in the USA.
The notion that Christians would create a theocracy is simple nonsense. Protestants used to have 100% control over the US and they wrote the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.
I'm sorry, but people who don't believe in the divinity of Christ are not Christians. This should not even be controversial.
His AUTOBIOGRAPHY! That was not written in the past 40 years, and he wrote it. So is that a no? No validation for your assertion that Franklin repudiated Deism?
In his autobiography he wrote...
Some books against Deism fell into my hands. ... They wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I became a thorough Deist.[1]
A THOROUGH Deist. Any evidence to contradict this?
You thought correctly and thank you for posting this. It contains not one bit of information that I did not already know. However, to see what I know validated by the original document gives me a very comforting feeling, and a few shivers. I once visited St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia where the Second Virginia Convention convened on 20 March 1775. I stood on the exact spot on the very same wooden floor timbers that Patrick Henry had stood on 23 March 1775 when he delivered that famous speech. That also gave me shivers.
I can only hope that future Americans, 100 years hence, don't start quoting Dick Turbin or John McCain.
Jefferson certainly believed in the supernatural. He believed in God. He believed in angels, and Satan, he believed in Prayer and believed that God did intervene in the lives of men. (I have dozens of letters, quotes, from jefferson supporting this)
Jefferson despised the corruption of Christ's words by men who tried to seek advantage over other men. He despised the corruptions of the Catholic church. he did not agree that Christ was God, nor do I. Christ was the Son of God, not God Himself.
Funny, Mylo, but you choose to ignore the many more quotes of Jefferson when he claims to be Christian.
In Protestantism no man tells another man whether they are Christian or not. Each man himself claims their discipleship to Christ.
You can also be Christian without belonging to any specific church (though Jefferson attended several on a regular basis depending whether he was in Virginia or Washington)
Jefferson prayed to God, followed the teachings of Christ and shared the Gospel with others (he wrote books about Christ). I have hundreds of quotes of his supplications to God.
By definition Deists do not pray to God, nor do they believe in an afterlife. Jefferson did both.
You cannot deny Jeffersons own profession of faith in Christ.
You cannot ignore Jeffersons belief in an afterlife and judgment by God.
"We are not in a world ungoverned by the laws and the power of a Superior Agent. Our efforts are in His hand, and directed by it; and He will give them their effect in His own time." -- Thomas Jefferson To David Barrow, Monticello, 1815
Thanks for the link! I've been hunting around for something like this...
Also any evidence that the "Thorough Deist" (his own words about himself) Benjamin Franklin rejected Deism?
*The Left's reading of the 1st Amendment.
Denial of divinity of Christ is a heresy like it was in the case of Arians/followers of Arius. But such heretics are still Christian if they believe that Jesus is Christ/Messiah.
Christian Unitarians are similiar doctrinally to Arians. That is why so called Polish Brethren were also called Arianie/Arians.
Christian Unitarianism is a logical conclusion of progression of the Reformation. Lutherans put individual judgment as arbiter of the Christian doctrine (based on private reading of the Gospels), Calvinism made the human reason the key part of this individual judgement (denying the reality of sacraments) and Unitarianism rejected the mysteries of the Faith like Holy Trinity.
That is why Lutheran Church was named Evangelical Church, Calvinist Church was named Reformed Evangelical Church and Unitarians were called Minor Reformed Church.
later pingout for sure.
Despite subscribing to Judeo-Christian principles, I don't believe the Sun has ever stood still, or that two of every animal were ever put on a ship, or that thousands of people can literally eat from a couple loaves of bread.
Even the text of the New Testament never claims (so far as I've understood it) that Jesus's original followers would lay down a divine account of his life. If that were the case, they could not differ in their accounts--and the Gospels do so. Even the Gospel narratives show the various flaws of the disciples; imperfect beings could never lay down a perfect account, could they?
I believe and most Americans believe that the Ten Commandments are a binding eternal law and that we are by God as Christians to follow the merciful example of Christ in our daily lives. But if believing every supernatural story that some mortal scribe recorded on a scroll is necessary to be a "Christian," I would submit that there are quite likely less than a million true "Christians" in the whole of the Western world.
"...except on public property*..."
or within eagle-eyes view of the same, at least per the ACLU, eh?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.