Posted on 07/04/2005 7:34:35 AM PDT by mal
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property‹either as a child, a wife, or a concubine‹must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Europe has a much bigger problem. For example, Muslims make up a larger share of the population in France--7 to 10 percent according to the article--compared to less than 2% in the US. Secondly, Muslims are more easily assimilated in the US due to our immigrant tradition. Europeans are not as tolerant of other cultures in their midst. Third, the populations of most European countries are declining and aging. They need immigrants to provide the workforce for their economies and generous social welfare systems. On the other hand, Muslims are reproducing at higher rates than the native born populations. Finally, it is more difficult to protect national borders given Maastricht and the EU.
What the Europeans have to fear most is greater political engagemement by Muslims. Heretofore, French muslims do not participate in the political process to the same degree as the native French. If they become up to 20% of the population by 2025 per this article, i.e., the Muslim population is expected to double by then, and become politically active, the basic fabric will change through democratic means. If people get excited now about right wingers like Le Penn, imagine what will happen 20 years from now. I see rising political strife in those countries with large Muslim populations.
Where will Europe's workers come from to support their economies? Most European countries have declining and aging populations.
I don't doubt that most Muslims are not angry, because I'm guessing that most Muslims don't care about religion any more than most Christians do these days.
Now, you are making sense.
But I think the proporation of "angry" Muslims is a lot higher among those who take the religion seriously.
This is an opinion brought to you by our MSM that have done AngryArabMuslim to death. If you were to judge our reactions to things, for example, by how many times the Rodney King beating was viewed, you would think that all poor, innocent victim-blacks are regularly beaten by racist pig cops. It's all a package, selling what the MSM wants YOU to know, think, learn, believe and get angry about.
I think there are WAY more angry, really angry liberals in this world than anything else.
The MSM truly believes that a feel-good story, "just the facts" and unbiased reporting just don't get the ratings that they want. They are probably correct. It AIN'T about truth, balance, fairness or choice. It's about money, ratings, money, agendas-when-possible, money.....and money.
Moreover, the Muslim world has allowed "the angry Muslims" to become the public face of Islam, just as the good Germans allowed Hitler to become the public face of Germany. All Muslims must take responsibility for that. The few statements of opposition by the Muslim world to the barbaric and wonton Muslim war on the west have been tepid, scarce and sparsely attended.
Please, try, just try not to bring Hitler into every conversation when your opinions run out of examples and steam. The MSM has made the AngryArabMuslim what he is today, not the average billion JoeMoSchmoe from Al-KobarKokomo.
If Islam has any redeeming qualities or benefits to bestow on humanity, they have yet to be made clear to me.
Islam is like any religion, a good one at heart, but corrupted by the people who are in it. I've heard Christians quote the Old Testament to justify bombing abortion clinics. If you read ugly things into their book and believe that every single Muslim on the planet lives and dies by those selected ugly words, then you are too programmed for any rational thinking. USE YOUR OWN COMMON SENSE.
And don't tell me it's because of the MSM only talking about "angry" Muslims. This is the same MSM that has virtually censored any pictures of 9-11 since a few months after that horrific event.
The MSM has SOAKED the world in AngryMuslimArab news for the past 20 years. It's been a bread-and-butter story for them for a generation. They have done the same thing with ANYTHING that will get ratings.
The MSM neglect the millions of Angry Africans who are killing each other to the tune of 3.8 million in the last ten years in the Congo countries. They ignore the civil wars, mostly, in Sudan and South America (the cocaine countries). Most people don't even know what's going on there. They aren't made to care by the MSM. They COULD be, but the MSM just isn't interested in Africa.
Yet, we have to know every sordid detail about ONE young, blonde, pretty, white, rich (OF COURSE! If she were old, poor, fat or ugly, she would NEVER make the news.) American woman in Aruba who got mixed up with assholes. Most Americans don't even know where Aruba is. The MSM did the Scott Peterson and O.J. Simposon trials to death! Who cares? Individual murders and deaths happen every day. WHY make Kobe Bryant's fiasco so huge. RIDICULOUS. That is your MSM. No one else did it but them.
The MSM make the news, chooses what to air, who to air, how much to air, how to package the information, when to air it, when to stop airing it, when to air it to death, who to comment on it, how much commentary there will be and when, the content and photos of that commentary, the background of said "news" and when to keep updating us on their agendized package.
They costume, make-up and prep their news readers, who are either young twitettes (male/female) or middle-aged males with deep voices, passable faces, hair and a serious faces.
Get a grip. The MSM is as contrived, packaged, planned, written, produced and edited by Hollywood pros as much as any and all the T.V. program or made-for-T.V. movie/documentaries.
My rants here wouldn't get a chance to "air" unless it were for the non-MSM medium of the Internet. Clear Mace from head and brain!
A bit harsh don't you think. America does have a distinctive culture and national identity forged through its institutions, laws, people, history, and the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. I don't buy your premise that America is held together by force and money. Until the recent Hispanic tidal wave of immigration, the US has been able to assimilate its immigrants and obtain their allegience. Americans persevered through the Great Depression without the fabric of the society becoming unraveled.
You both couldn't be more wrong. I have lived in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country), and Iran for a total of nine years. Islam is a religion that demands much from its adherents. Praying five times a day, fasting for a month (Ramadan), journeying once in a lifetime to Mecca/Medina (the haj), etc. are followeed religiously (pun intended) by most Muslims. Their level of particpation is much higher. Each predominately Muslim country has an official government department dealing with the religion and its practice in the country. There is no such thing as separation of mosque and state.
Islam is a way of life replete with its own legal system, i.e., Sharia law, which is inspired by the Koran. It is also a social system. If anything, Islamic fundamentalism is growing.
Islam = malignant cancer on all mankind. Practicing Muslims should not be permitted in the U.S. and the rest ought to be invited to return to where they came from at the earlierst opportunity. Europe is lost.
Secondly, Muslims are more easily assimilated in the US due to our immigrant tradition. Europeans are not as tolerant of other cultures in their midst.
The assimilation ease may also be due to the fact that we are more than four times larger in population than France and three and a half times larger than Germany. They are the biggest countries with 60 and 82 million respectively. The assimilation problem is even worse in tiny countries like Holland (16 million) or Sweden (9 million).
Tolerance is easy when the minorities aren't so visible.
Our country is also a zillion times large in space than ANY European country.
Besides, here in California, most Arabs are taken for Mexicans. Hey, swarthy complexion, black hair, brown eyes, mustache...and those are the women. Lol.
Third, the populations of most European countries are declining and aging. They need immigrants to provide the workforce for their economies and generous social welfare systems.
True enough.
The immigrants, as I mentioned above, are Eastern Europeans. Europe doesn't bring in the Turks and Arabs anymore. They prefer the Poles, Czechs, Rumanians, Croats, Russians, etc. THEY are white, Christian and MUCH easier to deal with.
Young male Arabs are now suspect. The group just isn't wanted any more. France IS stuck with more than its share because of Algeria. France DESERVES Algeria. What a pithole Algeria is.
On the other hand, Muslims are reproducing at higher rates than the native born populations.
True.
True for here; true for Israel; true for Muslims all over the world.
Hindus have the same soaring population, as does Mexico, Central/South America and Africa. THANK GOD the Chinese still practice some birth control They WOULD overrun the planet if they were set free to reproduce at will. Shudder.
Finally, it is more difficult to protect national borders given Maastricht and the EU.
True in the sense of their borders are open.
However, being so organized, you can believe that the French, German, Swiss, Scandinavians and Dutch have some very high tech security and know pretty much EXACTLY who is in their country, where they are and what they are doing.
OUR borders are the open doors. THEY scare me more than the EU open borders. I think our problem of open borders is worse. What the Europeans have to fear most is greater political engagemement by Muslims. Heretofore, French muslims do not participate in the political process to the same degree as the native French. If they become up to 20% of the population by 2025 per this article, i.e., the Muslim population is expected to double by then, and become politically active, the basic fabric will change through democratic means. If people get excited now about right wingers like Le Penn, imagine what will happen 20 years from now. I see rising political strife in those countries with large Muslim populations.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for five years. Yes, religion was a way of life, whether the people believed in it or not. But what has that to do with their being angry? Your entire premise makes no sense.
I think you just wanted to show off your knowledge of the middle east or simply tell us about your travels/living.
Most Saudis weren't angry. Hot, yes, angry, no.
I AM right.
""The footprint of Muslim immigrants in Europe is already more visible than that of the Hispanic population in the United States""
Some here think that Hispanics are our Palestinians. There is no rational comparison
"'and I predict the most brutal reaction will be in France.""
I think it will be the Netherlands. The Dutch, while full of debauchery, seem willing to fight for their culture.
Belgium will be the first country to fall. The Belgians are a completely hollow and empty people. Worse than the French
It's not "Mohammedan" law, it's Islamic law. Way off base there, tet.
Every woman, child AND man "belongs" to a family, clan or tribe. That's a fac, Jack.
Your knowledge of "Mohammedans" and their way of life is slightly incorrect, by a mere 180 degrees.
""Mass immigration will destroy America as well, probably before it destroys Europe. This is just PC.""
No it wont
It's the same as a virus. It must, repeat must, be killed or it will kill the host.
Excellent point.
The "Live 8" crowd should take a look at this. They won't, though, due to their sharing the political and social agendas of the MSM. They won't let a few starving Africans interfere with their self-images as rebels, or keep them from getting invited to the right parties.
I suppose the celebrities share the bottom line agenda of the MSM to some extent, too, as they rely on the media for their careers.
Most Saudis weren't angry. Hot, yes, angry, no.
I don't know when you lived in Saudi Arabia, but there was a general dissatisfaction with the House of Saud and the lack of opportunity for real jobs when I was there 1987-92. Saudization was supposed to remedy that problem, but it didn't and hasn't. The job situation has become worse for young Saudis because of one of the highest birthrates in the world and declining government subsidies. The Gulf War was a disaster for the Saudis for a number of reasons, not the least of which were the costs. GDP per capita went from nearly 20K to 6K. Oil prices may have boosted GDP per capita higher, but the large increase in population will offset it to some degree.
The Sh'ia in the Eastern Province were not happy campers. Many Saudi women who had traveled outside of Saudi Arabia were unhappy with their lot in life. About 50 of them staged a protest and drove in Riyadh. The governnment cracked down on them and pulled their passports along with their husbands'. There has been a strong undercurrent of opposition to the Royal family and it is growing.
Saudi Arabia has been a fertile recruiting ground for AQ. If you recall, 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. I bet if they did a poll in the Kingdom today, Bin Laden would rank as a hero. Government officials and foreigners are now becoming targets of terrorists inside the Kingdom, something that was unheard of a decade ago. The attack against USMTM in 1995, Khobar towers, etc. were harbingers of things to come. The Saudis could no longer pay their enemies off.
There was plenty of anger in the Kingdom when I was there and it seemed to have become worse when I last visited in 1999. According to reports from Iraq, many of the foreign fighters are Saudis.
Relating my personal knowledge or experience is not showing off as far as I am concerned. YOU are WRONG.
If you noticed, I gave France as an example. If you have better statistics for the percentage of the population that is Muslim, please provide it. Given the author's credentials, the publication (I am as subscriber), and my own knowledge, 7% to 10% sounds reasonable, if not on the low side. France has been a magnet for Muslim immigrants from North Africa (remember Algeria was a Department) and their former colonies in sub-Saharan Africa.
Also, Eastern Europeans make up the LION'S share of immigrants. Russians are right behind them.
Compared to whom? Are you fudging statistics? Please cite your source. If there are 15 to 20 million Muslims in Europe, how many Eastern Europeans have immigrated? And where are they relocating to? Eastern Europeans are still Europeans. Moreover, Hungary, Poland, Solvenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, and the Czech Republic are members of the EU. Bulgaria and Romania will be joining in 2007. The Maastricht Treaty provides for the free movement of member countries to move across national boundaries to obtain jobs.
The quintessential anti-immigrant "poster boy," MOST recently in France, is the picture of the obviously homosexual amle called the "Polish Plumber," not an Arab.
Poland is a member of the EU and shares the same Westerrn European culture as France. Madam Curie was Polish. By the way, the ad was prepared by the Polish National Tourist Board in France. Polish Tourism Industry Seeking to Attract French Visitors If you see the poster as being homosexual, that is your take, not that there is anything wrong with that. LOL
The assimilation ease may also be due to the fact that we are more than four times larger in population than France and three and a half times larger than Germany. They are the biggest countries with 60 and 82 million respectively. The assimilation problem is even worse in tiny countries like Holland (16 million) or Sweden (9 million).
Nice try. The US is an immigrant nation. The countries of Europe are not. I am not showing off mind you, but I have lived in Greece, Finland, Germany, Poland, and Italy. Europeans are not as accepting of immigrants as we are and some make citizenship very difficult for newcomers. They have stratified societies making it difficult for people to move from one class to another. I seriously doubt if a foreigner could ever rise to the level of a Kissinger, Brzezinski, or Schwarzenegger in their governments.
Tolerance is easy when the minorities aren't so visible. Our country is also a zillion times large in space than ANY European country. Besides, here in California, most Arabs are taken for Mexicans.
A zillion? According to the 2000 census, 31.1 million (or 11.1 percent) of Americans were foreign born out of a population of 281.4 million. I seriously doubt any European country can match that percentage, which is very likely understated given the huge illegal immigration we have from Mexico. This number has risen officially to over 33 million today.
The US is the most tolerant nation on earth. I have only been to 65 of them, but I have great confidence in that statement.
The immigrants, as I mentioned above, are Eastern Europeans. Europe doesn't bring in the Turks and Arabs anymore. They prefer the Poles, Czechs, Rumanians, Croats, Russians, etc. THEY are white, Christian and MUCH easier to deal with. Young male Arabs are now suspect. The group just isn't wanted any more. France IS stuck with more than its share because of Algeria. France DESERVES Algeria. What a pithole Algeria is.
Sorry, but Muslims are pouring in from all over the globe into Europe. Indonesians into the Netherlands, Africans into France, South Asians into the UK, and Turks into Germany (there are over 2 million Turks in Germany, many having lived there for generations--compared to 600,000 Italians, 280,000 Poles, and 400,000 Kurds).
As I stated earlier, most of the Eastern Europeans going into Western Europe are from EU member states. It is a big difference from the immigration coming from third world countries with different cultures and religions.
However, being so organized, you can believe that the French, German, Swiss, Scandinavians and Dutch have some very high tech security and know pretty much EXACTLY who is in their country, where they are and what they are doing.
If that were only true. You give them too much credit. They can't control the flow of people across their borders any more than we can. AQ had cells in Hamburg and attacked in Spain with lethal efficiency. The borders of Europe are only as strong as the weakest link and that includes the Greeks who have little to no control.
This is the only part I am going to respond to. I am getting bored with your lack of clear and straight thinking. You write like an Arab, liberal or lawyer--never directly addressing a point, sticking to it or following through with a thought.
I DON'T give the Germans, French, Dutch or Scandninavians too much credit. YOU give them too little.
They aren't wealthy, organized, peaceful "first world" countries for nothing. They are top-notch places to live, thanks to their culture, history, values and traditions--though, the way YOU think you will start quoting MSNBC, CNN and the other rag networks and cite their "coverage" of any "demonstration" that jives with YOUR concept of the world. THAT would be negative, anti-Europe knee-jerk babble nonsense rhetoric thinking.
You appear to have MSNBC/CNN/MSM-fed inculcation which they put forth is the one, the only and the true reality of our existence. It's mostly butthump but you WILL quote them. Lol.
If you READ what I wrote, you MIGHT have seen that in my examples, SPAIN was not included. Apparently you didn't. Too bad. Spain is not Germany, Holland, France or Scandinavia. I deliberately left them out because their security is NOT lacking, as is Spain's.
Finally, the Greeks have more control than you realize. 98% of the people working and living in Greece are Greeks. Please read that carefully and let it seep into your brain. The Greeks are VERY strict about who lives and works there. They have millions of tourists every year, but, believe it or not, they aren't a hapless as you would make them.
Lol. You failed to read what I wrote excluding Spain, so I hardly expect you to fathom this either.
Perhaps English is your second language and you simply aren't equipped.
I don't care anymore. Aloha. I'm off to Maui.
I DON'T give the Germans, French, Dutch or Scandninavians too much credit. YOU give them too little. They aren't wealthy, organized, peaceful "first world" countries for nothing. They are top-notch places to live, thanks to their culture, history, values and traditions--though, the way YOU think you will start quoting MSNBC, CNN and the other rag networks and cite their "coverage" of any "demonstration" that jives with YOUR concept of the world. THAT would be negative, anti-Europe knee-jerk babble nonsense rhetoric thinking.
Lots of emotion, little facts. All of the countries you mentioned are having immigration problems, including illegals. As I mentioned, I have lived in Europe (for a total of 13 years), my wife is German, and my daughter is studying there. I understand how their political systems work as well as the quality of living. They are "wealthy, organized, peaceful "first world" countries" and so are we. In fact, we have provided them with the security umbrella and investment to achieve their present condition following WWII. Unlike you, I am not that impressed by the Europeans. Historically, Europe has been wracked by war and revolution for centuries. The two largest wars in history, WWI and WWII, were primarily European wars. It was the US presence in Europe for 60 years, which has helped keep the peace.
Finally, the Greeks have more control than you realize. 98% of the people working and living in Greece are Greeks. Please read that carefully and let it seep into your brain. The Greeks are VERY strict about who lives and works there. They have millions of tourists every year, but, believe it or not, they aren't a hapless as you would make them.
I lived in Greece for three years, working for the USG. Greece has some real security problems, paticularly controlling its borders. The Albanians have been coming across the border like a revolving door. The Greek airports have been evaluated as some of the worst in the world in terms of security. The USG has threatened periodically to issue a travel advisory warning Americans not to go there because of security. The Greek terrorist organization, November 17th, was finally shut down a few years ago after operating for over 20 years killing Americans, Brits, and Greek officials. The Greek police are not among the best in the world.
You statement on Greece demonstrates your total ignorance on the subject of Europe, security, and immigration. Intellectually, I don't find you much of a challenge let alone an equal. You argue using emotion and personal attacks. There is no there there.
Have a good trip to Maui and stay out of the sun. I think you have been in the sun too long already.
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