Really Cool Invention Brings Teens Awards (Amazing Kids-Invented What GM Couldn't)

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 07/06/2005 | Jessica Ravitz

[myself6]

The energy comes from the movement of a conductor through a magnetic field.

whats your point?

[bmwcyle]

[JAKraig]

Actually the solution for the last several years is to run the compressor and generate a pool of liquid refrigerant that continues to evaporate moving heat from inside the car to the refrigerant. Eventually all the pool is gas and the compressor comes on again. When the compressor comes on it compresses the low pressure gas into a high pressure gas and consequently high temperature gas where it is moved into the condenser. In the condenser the high temperature gas is cooled to a warm temperature high pressure liquid. Then we start all over again by allowing the warm liquid to move into the low pressure side where is evaporates and absorbes heat. The compressor does not stay on all the time but the cooling effect does.

[myself6]

This is where I think you guys are missing the point.

The alternator will NOT try to generate more power as the load increases. The only thing (in a car) that is going to get that alternator spinning faster is the throttle, which is controlled by the foot pedal. The throttle is adjusted for speed reasons not electrical reasons.

[Kirkwood]

"You are very, very mistaken. Why do they build water turbines at the bottom of thousand-foot dams? "

Because water has to be falling in order to convert he kinetic energy into electric energy. The more energy the water has through the height of the column of water above it, the larger the turbine you can turn to generate electricity. It has nothing to do with electrical loads. You can have zero load on the turbine and it is limited by the kinetic energy in the flow of the water. If you put an infinite electrical load on the turbine, it doesn't stop turning. You also need a constant supply of flowing water, which you are not assured of if you put your turbines at the top of a dam.

[Kirkwood]

Correct.

[hopespringseternal]

Wow, go easy. Not everyone is as brilliant as you are.

Brilliant? For knowing one of the first lessons in elementary physics?

Unfortunately, people like that wind up defining our energy policy with their ignorance.

[brownsfan]

Not just surprising... I'm shocked.

[q_an_a]

you may be right, but they won a prize based upon what others did not see. sometimes one item is not all that is the product, but it is all the space the news is willing or knows how to explain the product. Ricoh didn't give them an award for theory.

[JAKraig]

I'm sorry, I have to continue. Either I misunderstand what you are saying or you are out in left field.

First:
There is no extra electrical energy generated above and beyond the load required by the battery and other loads. The loads determine exactly how much energy in the form of electricity is generated. Disconnect the loads and there is no energy produced! There is no Waste! Period.

Second:
As more electrical power is required by the load it most certainly produces more drag on the engine requiring more work from the engine. Just start you car let it idle and turn on you headlights on high beam and listen to the engine load up.

[Myrddin]

It is not a new idea. I worked for a marine electronics company in San Diego from 1977 to 1980. During that time I was responsible for servicing Magnavox satellite navigation systems on the west coast. One of my calls was to Ballast Point to repair a satnav on a research submarine. Submarines need air conditioning, but they don't use freon because it turns into phosgene gas in a fire (neurotoxin). The sub uses Peltier devices with the hot side bonded to the hull. Air handlers blow air over the cold side. The "idea" was deployed in the real world circa 1977.

The concept probably won't save any fuel. The Peltier device requires active electrical drive that will come from the car battery. The alternator has to charge that battery using engine power derived by burning gasoline. A freon based compressor is driven from the same set of engine pulleys.

[Cyber Ninja]

After they had already begun their work, Lyon
and Winegar learned about a 1964 General Motors
analysis that explored the idea before the car
company concluded it wasn't possible.

I worked my way through collage working at a discount
emporium. This old fellow would come through my
register Sunday mornings. He was dressed in khaki work
clothes. But, he had a diamond ring; the diamond the
size of a nickel. His wife always had lots of jewelry
on too.

Turns out he was a mechanic. In the early 1950’s he
patented the idea of three color tail lights on cars.
Green you’re on the gas, amber you’re coasting, red
you’re breaking. The car companies wanted to buy the
patent, not to implement it, but to kill it.

He wouldn’t sell it. He wanted royalties.
He had retired at 26 years old in the late 1950’s.

These kids may do very well for themselves.

[coloradan]

Do you always turn the faucet on full to fill a glass with water?

Thermodynamics doesn't come into play here, although a toilet tank does exactly that to fill.

Do you set your stove burner on full to warm up some soup.

No, because the soup would burn, something not at issue for the A/C.

Do you accelerate your car to full speed and then slam on the brakes at the next stop light?

No, because comfort is also a factor in the acceleration/deceleration profile of the ride, again, something not at issue with the A/C.

Of course not, and yet this is how A/C works.

None of your examples are good analogies. But, for example, a furnace is either on or it's off. So too with an electric blanket, or fishtank heater. In these systems, there's a lowpass filter that smooths the on-again, off-again input to an average value.

How many times have you heard people complain that A/C leaves them either too hot or too cold?

It's not my fault they can't adjust a knob - or aim the vents properly, or whatever. Neither does it disprove that the most efficient way to operate an air conditioner is by pulse-width-modulating the output, either at the most efficient place, or off entirely, and cycling fast enough so the net cooling is perceived as average, as opposed to on-again, off-again.

It is inefficient if you are using more energy than is actually needed at a given time.

Instantaneously, yes, on average, no. It's more inefficient to run it all the time, at an operating point with lower efficiency.

The solution has been to run the A/C and add warm air so you avoid the uncomfortable cycling and can zone different parts of living space to specific temperatures. You trade off energy efficiency for comfort.

You made my point for me ... you are now admitting that you are trading away energy efficiency.

[brownsfan]

"Brilliant? For knowing one of the first lessons in elementary physics?"

Sarcasm... sorry, no tag included.
Look, the guy may not have been correct, but didn't deserve a bashing... at that point. Turns out he has an attitude, and I'd call him fair game now.

[Myrddin]

I've already cited prior art in the submarine air conditioning. The patent won't fly.

[petro45acp]

"BTW, they are rethinking the moniker, fossil fuels. Turns out they're not sure that's how oil was formed, and they're not even sure that oil is a non-renewable resource anymore."


Please say that again!

Top sends

[hopespringseternal]

As the alternator spins, it converts mechanical to electrical, we all know that. But any electrical energy above and beyond what the appliances use and the battery is recharged with is wasted.

It doesn't generate any electrical energy above and beyond the load. On an older car without an idle speed selenoid, you can start flipping on electrical accessories and hear the load increase and idle speed decrease. As the electrical load is increased, the mechanical load increases.

If you short the alternator, you will kill the engine. But don't do that because alternators aren't rated for that much mechanical energy or electrical load.

[myself6]

Think about how a car operates and how the revolutions of an engine are controlled...

An alternator is spinning at the number of revolutions determined by the RPM of the engine. Pulleys and belts at work here... The only way to increase the revolutions on the alternator is to increase the RPM of the engine.

I don't know what kind of cars YOU guys drive, but the ones I drive GO FASTER when the RPM of the car increases (to a certain point that is).

THEREFORE... The electrical load on the alternator of a CAR will not increase the mechanical load on the engine directly. for the mechanical load of the engine to increase someone or something must make the engine work harder by making it either harder to make a revolution or revolve faster.

As we know, the alternator will not become harder to turn 2000 RPM as the electrical load increases so there will be no increase in the mechanical load of the engine.

[MississippiMan]

Well, that sounds nifty, but does it dehumudify like a typical AC unit?

Amen to that question. Dehumidification is a HUGE reason why conditioned air feels so good. It's not just cool. Watch the drip rate of an AC on a hot Southern summer day.

MM

[JAKraig]

While most alternators will not generate full power at low RPM that is only because of the limitations of the voltage regulator. Having said that, the power output is not controlled by RPM but by voltage input into the rotor by the voltage regulator. Therefore at normal operating speeds (RPM) the alternator will be able to generate full rated load without an increase above normal operating speeds.

We are probably getting beyond the original scope of the questions raised by these kids.

Some things to consider:

I would love go get rid of my A/C compressor and the high repair costs that go with it. I would love to get rid of the large amount of weight I carry around from the Evaporator, Condenser, Hoses and Compressor. We would not loose the weight of the fans now used because the heat still has to be moved.

By the way, there is no real cooling produced, just the removal of heat.