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Attack in London : the "war" excuse
The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review ^ | 07/23/05 | Editorial

Posted on 07/22/2005 9:35:45 PM PDT by smoothsailing

Attack in London: The 'war' excuse

Saturday, July 23, 2005

London's worst bombing since World War II, followed Thursday by four small explosions that struck underground train stations and a bus, have prompted dire warnings to Great Britain about the war in Iraq.

By taking up arms with the United States, the logic goes, Britain has brought the bombings on itself.

But those who strap on bombs to blow up civilians don't need a war to justify their agenda. Their jihad was ingrained long before Americans or British troops ever stepped foot in Iraq.

Consider just a partial resume of modern-day terrorists' acts:

-the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland
-the Israeli embassy bombing in Argentina in 1992
-the World Trade Center bombing in 1993
-the Riyadh military compound bombing in Saudi Arabia in 1995
-the bombing of American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998
-and the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000.

At the time of each attack there was no war -- except for the one that burned in demented minds.

And on 9/11, what "war" sent suicidal terrorists into the sky.....SNIP

What nation did the U.S. occupy then?

Today, two years after the invasion, Iraq has become a hotbed for imported insurgency and terrorism, a veritable mecca for those who seethe with hatred against America and all it represents.

And if there was no war? Those who despise the United States, its allies and all it represents have never needed a war to act upon their hatred with cold-blooded determination.

© 2004 by The Tribune-Review Publishing Co.

(Excerpt) Read more at pittsburghlive.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Philosophy; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: londonattacked
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To: Bazooka; hank aaron
hank aaron just registered today and this was his first post.

Your reply to him was very informative while mine was a bit shall we say "cute".

I hope he learns from yours,I Know I did.

21 posted on 07/22/2005 10:34:41 PM PDT by smoothsailing (Qui Nhon Turtle Co.)
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To: TheCrusader

So Tony condemns citizens acting to protect themselves, but the mercenaries called "police" are heros. Why, because they work for Tony?

Government makes less sense to me everyday. It's just a big cult of people flattering themselves to the point they feel right stealing 35% of your income.

Man, I need some sleep!


22 posted on 07/22/2005 10:37:22 PM PDT by SteveMcKing
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To: hank aaron
When you can understand that then we can talk

Looks like there won't be much talk. Probably a few coarse suggestions.

23 posted on 07/22/2005 10:40:00 PM PDT by RightWhale (Substance is essentially the relationship of accidents to itself)
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: SteveMcKing
"So Tony condemns citizens acting to protect themselves, but the mercenaries called "police" are heros."

I'm not in total disagreement with you, but the British police are doing a fine job of it so far.

They know who the terrorists are/were, they're arresting linked terrorists in Britain and Pakistan, they're locating bomb making material, they're breaking up cells, and they've even killed one of the cowardly s.o.b.s and sent him to his virgin goats.

Though in all honesty, I think Britain has one huge problem on their hands with millions of potential terrorists/rioters/subversives living amongst them in their many muslim communities. While there's no easy answer right now, if things continue to get worse and more Brits get killed by these Muslim terrorists, you just might see their muslim community getting terrorized in return by Brit civilians.

Personally, I'd rather see the Muslims police their own communities and rat out the terrorists among them, but apparently this isn't going to happen any time soon. Right now all they're doing is complaining about the UK's and America's foreign policy and blaming us for the terrorism.

25 posted on 07/22/2005 11:27:37 PM PDT by TheCrusader (The churches of God have been devastated by the frenzy of the Mohammedans". Pope Urban II c. 1090 ad)
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To: RightOnTheLeftCoast
(Eurotwit is developing a list of Jihadist rapes of Euro women and other attacks on women by the Jihadists. That will be out soon.)

When that list is compiled I would appreciate it if you would ping me. I know there's been several in Australia that I've heard about. I'm hearing more and more on it, in different countries.

26 posted on 07/22/2005 11:28:37 PM PDT by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: Names Ash Housewares
You can't reason with the left . You know that. They still think you can ''bring the terrorists to the table ''and negotiate with them. They're so sad and pathetic. The weird thing I've noticed lately is the striking similarities of the left and the terrorists. The DemocRATS used to be in power they had everything at one time. Now they've lost it and what do they do? Accuse, attack . smear , make up scandals, etc........ The Arab Muslims used to have power a long ago. Now they have fallen way behind the civilized world in every conceivable way. The Imam's preach their hatred and point fingers,claiming its the West, its Imperialism,its the Brits, its the modern culture, its not our fault.Don't blame us. ITS THEIRS!!! What else are they going to say? When I was a kid and flunked a test, I tried to blame my teacher, then my classmate who sat next to me, then my sister! My mom would have none of it and made me stay home for the whole weekend and study. I ended up getting an A. Its hard to look in the mirror but if the Democrats don't start coming up with some new ideas, or rethinking their party's values, they will continue to lose elections and just keep pointing fingers and attacking us. and lose. If the Arab leaders in the mosks don't stop preaching their hate speeches of excuses they will continue to breed these monsters and they will reap what they have sowed.Anyway I really enjoyed reading your post!
27 posted on 07/23/2005 12:54:04 AM PDT by Bush gal in LA
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To: smoothsailing
July 23, 2005
Poisonous Misinterpretations
by Scott Horton

"This is not an isolated criminal act we are dealing with, it is an extreme and evil ideology whose roots lie in a perverted and poisonous misinterpretation of the religion of Islam."
Tony Blair

Listen to Scott's interview with Robert Pape

stream

download mp3

 

Why do they hate us? Does Islam, or a "poisonous misinterpretation" of it, create terrorism? Often we're told by politicians that a corrupt version of Islam is the cause of the al-Qaeda movement and its most deadly tactic, suicide terrorism. In his book, Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, University of Chicago associate professor of political science Robert A. Pape wrestles with these questions and more. His conclusions surprised even him. On my July 16 radio show [stream] [download mp3], he said that after 9/11 he assumed the Koran might contain clues toward understanding what motivates a person to commit a suicide bombing. For his book, however, Pape started with the bombings themselves – every documented case between 1980 and 2004 – and noticed some suggestive common threads. Foreign occupation, it seems – not religion – is the core motivating factor behind suicide terrorism. From Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank to Sikhs in India, from the jihadists of 9/11 to the secular Marxist Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka – for all of these, it is "a nationalistic response."

Professor Pape says that while al-Qaeda terrorists are twice as likely to be from a country where radical Salafist/Wahhabist Islam is widely practiced, they are 10 times more likely to have come from a country that has U.S. troops stationed in it. In most cases, this foreign military presence is not hostile in a traditional sense, since the local governments have agreed to their stay. But according to a Saudi poll after 9/11, 95 percent of educated Saudi males between the ages of 25 and 41 agreed with bin Laden's goal of driving Americans off their holy land.

No suicide bombers have ever come from Iran, where there are no foreign troops. Iraq had never seen a suicide bombing on its soil before U.S. troops arrived in 2003. While Ayatollah Khomeini spent the 1980s criticizing American culture, many people agreed, but none resorted to suicide bombing. When bin Laden cited U.S. forces in the land of Mecca and Medina, men hopped on planes with knives.

The root cause of suicide terrorism is occupation, not Islam, and not the other way around, as the War Party and its ill-informed adherents so righteously claim.

"Don't you remember Sept. 11? We were attacked!"

As Harry Browne has pointed out, history does not begin on 9/11. In fact, American intervention in the Middle East dates back to 1919, when U.S. participation in World War I helped turn the entire region over to the British and the French, who then drew borders to their own liking for the states of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, what was Palestine, etc.

Since the Second World War, the U.S. government has dominated each of the Middle Eastern states at one time or another, and consistently a majority of them. It has supported bloody coups; backed fascist monsters like Shah Reza Pahlavi, Saddam Hussein, and Hosni Mubarak; armed and financed both sides of wars; propped up puppet kings, sultans, and emirs; and helped the Israeli government kill, steal, and destroy with our money. To top it off, it has now waged a bloody war and a terrible blockade of Iraq – all from bases in the "land of two Holy Places," the Arabian Peninsula.

Surprised that revenge was taken? We're lucky it took so long.

Michael Scheuer, the formerly anonymous author of Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror and ex-head analyst at the CIA's bin Laden unit, Alec Station, seems to concur. In his book, he lists six policies that have fueled al-Qaeda's fire:

  • First and foremost are the U.S. forces that spent 13 years in Saudi Arabia and have now been moved to other bases on the Arabian Peninsula. This is a distinction, Pape says, without a difference to bin Laden or his followers, for whom the entire Peninsula is Holy Land. Think of it as a Middle Eastern Monroe Doctrine. It was not American tourists and businessmen that pissed him off either. It was the soldiers.

  • Second is America's unconditional support for Israel, which occupies Jerusalem.

  • Third are the long-term blockade of Iraq and the bombing of the "no-fly" zone, which, on average, happened once every three days for over a decade. These have now been replaced by the wars against, and ongoing occupations of, Afghanistan and Iraq – even more valuable recruiting tools.

  • Fourth on Scheuer's list of bin Laden's motivations is American support for Russia, China, and India in their suppression of Muslims. Seems he spoke too soon on Russia, as the American neoconservatives curiously favor the Chechens in that fight, despite the U.S. government's rhetorical and financial support of "the fight against Islamist extremism everywhere."

  • Fifth and sixth are U.S. government support for corrupt governments in the Middle East, none of which are democratic (among these are Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman, Qatar, Egypt, and now Iraq), and pressure (that is, threats of violence) to keep oil prices set where American mercantilists want them. Is it a surprise that all of the 9/11 hijackers – at least the one's whose identities aren't in dispute – were from countries (Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates) with governments friendly to our own, and that none of them were from Iran, Iraq, or Syria?

Pape has researched the strategic, social, and individual logic of suicide terrorism. He explains that when occupying forces are culturally and/or religiously alien, they are more vulnerable to demonization. It's the same with the American soldier who wrote to tell me that Iraqis are "animals" who "all look alike" and are all "guilty of something" as his excuse for taking life.

A major problem with the "fringe religion" theory is that it ignores the fact that supermajorities in Islamic nations agree with bin Laden's view of American foreign policy, though not necessarily with his tactics. It denies the slightest possibility of a single legitimate grievance that might deserve to be addressed. It also enables our government to maintain its state of war indefinitely.

The profile of the individual suicide bomber is going to need some major revision as well. Pape explains the difference between egoistic and altruistic suicide – the former being the desperate killing of oneself during a period of hopelessness for their own situation, the latter a selfless and noble sacrifice for others, like a soldier jumping on a grenade for his buddies, or a Kamikaze Pilot trying to delay a land invasion of his country. Egoistic suicide has been the model used by westerners to explain suicide bombings. The bombers are losers, they say; young, poor, uneducated, hopeless and full of rage. Having nothing to live for, they murder innocent people because evil Wahhabists brainwash them and promise them virgins in heaven.

According to Pape, this model must be scrapped. Suicide bombers are typically upper-middle class, well-educated, successful, socially connected people who know exactly what they are doing. For their perception of a greater good, they give their lives to kill people as part of a strategic campaign aimed at the people of the West, to turn us against our governments, and to force them to end the occupations and protections.

The action is in the reaction. As we saw in the recent London attacks, suicide terrorism works, particularly against democracies. It is dependent on the ability of the targeted civilians to pressure their governments to end the occupations.

The Royal Institute for International Affairs, the center of the British foreign policy establishment, has concluded [.pdf]:

"There is no doubt that the situation over Iraq has imposed particular difficulties for the UK, and for the wider coalition against terrorism. It gave a boost to the al-Qaeda network's propaganda, recruitment and fundraising, caused a major split in the coalition, provided an ideal targeting and training area for al-Qaeda-linked terrorists. … Riding pillion with a powerful ally has proved costly in terms of British and U.S. military lives, Iraqi lives, military expenditure, and the damage caused to the counter-terrorism campaign."

But Jack Straw remains as stubborn as… well, as a Stalinist. According to DeHavilland:

"[F]oreign secretary Jack Straw said he was 'astonished' by the report.

"Mr. Straw said the war on terror had been sparked by September 11th, the 'premeditated unprovoked attack' on New York and Washington, and not vice versa.

"'The time for excuses for terrorism is over. The terrorists have struck across the world, in countries allied with the U.S., backing the war in Iraq and in countries which had nothing whatever to do with the war in Iraq,' he said.

"'They struck in Kenya, in Tanzania, in Indonesia, in the Yemen. They struck this weekend in Turkey, which was not supporting our action in Iraq. It is the terrorists who will seek any excuse whatsoever for their action.'

"John Reid, defense secretary, dismissed the report, saying it had failed to proffer any alternatives.

"'The terrorists want to kill anyone who stands in the way of their perverse ideology,' Mr. Reid said."

The terrorists struck Americans in Kenya, Tanzania, Indonesia, and Yemen. Locals who were also killed were collateral damage, so to speak. As for the attack in Turkey, it was committed by our allies the Kurds. Why didn't Straw go ahead and mention the Mujahedin e-Khalq terrorist cult of Islamo-Marxists that the coalition of the willing sent into Iran to bomb civilians only a few weeks back?

As for 9/11 being unprovoked, I will again quote James Bamford's description of bin Laden and Zawahiri's plan to provoke the U.S. into invading the greater Middle East:

"Ayman al-Zawahiri argued that al-Qaeda should bring the war to 'the distant enemy' in order to provoke the Americans to strike back and 'personally wage the battle against Muslims.' It was that battle that bin Laden and Zawahiri wanted to spark [with the 9/11 attacks]. As they made clear in their declaration of war 'against Jews and Crusaders.' They believed that the United States and Israel had been waging war against Muslims for decades. Now their hope was to draw Americans into a desert Vietnam, with bin Laden in the role of North Vietnamese president Ho Chi Minh."

The leaders of al-Qaeda believed that the U.S. was already at war against them through our proxies, so they decided to lure us into their desert swamp to "bleed us dry" economically, and to eventually force us out altogether, all the while expanding their own constituency on our dime. It's working.

The people of England disagree with Jack Straw. Check out this article in the Guardian:

"Two-thirds of Britons believe there is a link between Tony Blair's decision to invade Iraq and the London bombings despite government claims to the contrary, according to a Guardian/ICM poll published today. The poll makes it clear that voters believe further attacks in Britain by suicide bombers are also inevitable, with 75% of those responding saying there will be more attacks. The research suggests the government is losing the battle to persuade people that terrorist attacks on the UK have not been made more likely by the invasion of Iraq. According to the poll, 33% of Britons think the prime minister bears 'a lot' of responsibility for the London bombings and a further 31% 'a little.' Only 28% of voters agree with the government that Iraq and the London bombings are not connected."

America's policy is self-destructive. A "global democratic revolution" – in other words, the maintenance of Western-friendly governments in countries all over the world – can only make matters worse. The war in Iraq sure has.

According to the Boston Globe,

"New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank – both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States – have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself."

One could do worse than to read Pape's book, or for that matter, to simply Google "Osama bin Laden" for a few hours. All of bin Laden's threats are predicated on removing American troops from his backyard. He may want to rule all the world, but all available historical evidence shows that occupation is what galvanizes his followers. They'll keep signing up until our governments bring the soldiers home from the Middle East and South Asia.

Defeat, in this case, means ending the empire. What right do we have to win?


28 posted on 07/23/2005 1:15:38 AM PDT by Woliff
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To: RightOnTheLeftCoast

bttt


29 posted on 07/23/2005 1:18:36 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: Names Ash Housewares

A small after thought. When arguing with the left ,I have been called a Nazi, spat at, and also been exposed to their wonderfully imaginative'' conspiracy theories'' also! This usually set in when they realize they are losing the argument' It's a pathetic attempt to change the subject. The same exact tactic my 5 year old niece uses when throwing a tantrum and its played out, and she realizes she's not going to get her way.


30 posted on 07/23/2005 1:22:11 AM PDT by Bush gal in LA
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To: Bush gal in LA

Bush gal, just ask the left for their solutions. After they say, get rid of Bush, ask them again. They have no solutions.


31 posted on 07/23/2005 1:36:03 AM PDT by AGreatPer
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To: TheCrusader
Your post is being deleted because it contains a complete article from CNN.com. Material from CNN.com needs to be excerpted and linked. Updated FR Excerpt and Link Only or Deny Posting List due to Copyright Complaints
32 posted on 07/23/2005 1:40:15 AM PDT by Sidebar Moderator
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To: smoothsailing
This is the
"The Great Satan made me do it."
defense.
33 posted on 07/23/2005 1:42:08 AM PDT by syriacus (Muslims who really want peace should unite behind a non-violent leader like Gandhi, King, or Walesa.)
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To: smoothsailing
By taking up arms with the United States, the logic goes, Britain has brought the bombings on itself.

So, what did the Egyptians do to bring about the terrorist attacks there?

34 posted on 07/23/2005 1:44:06 AM PDT by Jess Kitting
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To: Woliff
Professor Pape says that ... al-Qaeda terrorists ... are 10 times more likely to have come from a country that has U.S. troops stationed in it.

Presence of US troops is no justification for killing innocent people.

Haven't those unhappy Muslims ever heard King, Walesa, or Gandhi?

35 posted on 07/23/2005 1:47:06 AM PDT by syriacus (Muslims who really want peace should unite behind a non-violent leader like Gandhi, King, or Walesa.)
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To: AGreatPer

LOL! Your so right! You must know these fools that I deal with every day out here!.........I actually tried asking them that once. I saId what would Kerry have done to solve the problem of terrorism or even their idol Howard Dean if he had been elected?........After a second they get a glazed look in their eyes and start screaming ''Bush lied people died'' or ''Selected not elected''!They kind of reminD me of robots or ''stepford DemocRATS''. Its like they're all programmed with the same lame responses! SCARY!


36 posted on 07/23/2005 1:51:23 AM PDT by Bush gal in LA
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To: Woliff
"and helped the Israeli government kill, steal, and destroy..."

This line suggests that you (or Scott?) find Israel to be the guilty party in the history of Middle East conflict? A poisonous misinterpretation, IMO.

It does seem clear, though, that our presence there is, if not the cause of terrorism against us, a necessary ingredient for its existence. Our friendship with Israel is closer to being the actual cause, IMO, considering the hatred among Muslims for that nation.

My conclusion has been that, for the safety of Western Civilization in the age of WMD's, Islamic terror needs to be eradicated...hard to do that without a presence in the Middle East. OTOH, dependence on Middle Eastern oil and the wealth it brings to the rulers in the region, is what allows the existence of Middle Eastern terror. Seems clear enough that the alternative to eradicating Al Qaeda is finding another energy source that would end the necessity of our involvement in that part of the world. And leave the eradication of terror to Israel. One wonders if Israel would not have already accomplished that if not for having been restrained by the West in its thirst for oil.

37 posted on 07/23/2005 1:56:55 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: AGreatPer
"After they say, get rid of Bush, ask them again. They have no solutions"

Good point. I have often heard them say that there are no solutions, that terror is just something we have to live with.

38 posted on 07/23/2005 1:59:33 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: smoothsailing

BLAME BUSH! for all islamic attacks will last awhile. If anything happens it's BLAME BUSH.

9/11.. BLAME BUSH.. all attacks prior, BLAME BUSH.

Amazingly, this will get the islamics off the charge for many years.


39 posted on 07/23/2005 2:02:03 AM PDT by LAURENTIJ
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To: Bush gal in LA
Yea, we see them all the time in DC when I join the DC chapter.

They have no answers. What gets me is that they are so mean. I mean, downright disgusting. You certainly would fit in with us perfectly.

Just a month ago in front of the White House, I stopped arguing with them. They are such idiots and not even worth me wasting a breath of air on them.

I asked Sheila Jackson Lee why she is bitching about Gitmo and she had never been there to check it out. She had no answer. Later I found out she went to Gitmo one week later. Guess, what? There has been no report from her. Hmmmmmmm, what she found out must have not been acceptable to her way of thunking.

Please keep up the good work in Cali. Wowers, that is a tought area.

Hope to see you at a Freep sometime Bush gal. Your a trooper.

Bill in Hershey, PA

40 posted on 07/23/2005 2:06:33 AM PDT by AGreatPer
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