Dingell Condemns Remarks Attacking Islam by Rep. Tancredo

John Dingell Press Release ^ | 7/23/2005

[4.1O dana super trac pak]

Congressman John D. Dingell (MI-15), the Dean of the House of Representatives, condemned the recent comments made by Representative Tom Tancredo (CO-06) as “ignorant” and “inexcusable” for a Member of Congress. During a recent interview on Tampa radio station WFLA-AM, Mr. Tancredo said that the US might “take out (Muslim) holy sites” in response to another terrorist attack on the US. When asked if he meant Mecca, Congressman Tancredo responded “yeah.”

Said Dingell, “First of all, suggesting the bombing of a holy site of any religion is simply inexcusable for an elected official in the United States Congress and an anathema to the millions of people of faith across our nation. To even suggest an attack on Mecca shows Congressman Tancredo has no understanding of the true nature of Islam and the peaceful Muslims living in the Arab world. The holy sites of all religions – Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and all others – are the most sacred and hallowed places for their respective followers and to suggest that any one of these sites be bombed is clearly an attack on that religion and its followers. Mr. Tancredo’s reprehensible attack on Islam is ignorant and offensive.

“We must stand united and strong against terrorism, but these are exactly the kind of careless comments that Muslim extremists feed off of and use to recruit new terrorists. To suggest that we hold an entire religion responsible for the actions of a minority of religious extremists - in effect declare a holy war against Islam - is outrageous and plays right into the hands of those very radicals. There is no better motivation to get someone to fight an apparent enemy than to threaten what they love most and are willing to defend at any cost – whether it is their family, homeland, or their holy land. I only hope that his statement won’t be used on extremist websites as justification for a ‘holy war’ against the United States and our allies.

“America was founded by people who believed strongly both in God and in the free expression of religion; that solid foundation remains and is part of what makes us the greatest nation in the world. Mr. Tancredo’s comments --while he has the absolute right to make such remarks-- are contradictory to freedom and the values of this nation. I call on the Republican Leadership in Congress and the President to condemn these comments and make clear that this is an action that the United States would never lower itself to.”

[television is just wrong]

They are already mad at us. Muslims don't forget. We are screwed no matter what Tom tancredo says.

[Kirkwood]

The real world is far more complicated than your puny intellect can apparently grasp. Your belief that you can win a war on terrorism by a first strike against a billion muslims and their holy cities is so pathetically misguided as to be laughable. You expect to win a war with an internal enemy living among us by bombing Mecca? Yeesh!

[XJarhead]

Mecca IS Islam, in a way it is difficult for Westerners to comprehend.

Then you, as a westerner, should be careful about predicting how moslems would react.

Devout Muslims believe that the black stone represents all of Allah's power and glory. They believe, sincerely, that if the USA launched rockets at Mecca, Allah would swat them away like flies, or turn them around to hit New York or Washington.

Alright, let's assume that is true. That moslems truly believe that if the US launched rockets at Mecca, Allah would swat them away like flies. I don't for a moment believe that all moslems believe that, but its your hypothesis, so we'll accept it as true for a moment. Just keep that in mind. You're a moslem, and know to the very core of your being that the stone cannot be destroyed. Unfortuantely, that leads to some conclusions that don't help the case for nuking Mecca.

First, a threat to nuke Mecca would have no deterrent effect at all because they don't believe it could happen. If anything, a U.S. attempt to nuke Mecca would necessarily lead to the ultimate glory of Allah, because the rockets would be pushed away for all the world to see. The threat has no deterrent value because all moslems believe it is impossible to nuke the city and/or stone anyway.

So given the lack of deterrent effect, maybe you want to argue that forgetting deterrence, it still would result in the end of the religion because the stone would be destroyed, proving that Allah lacks power. But the stone can't be destroyed, remember?

That's the flaw in the logic predicting the demise of islam if you desroy the stone -- you can't ever prove the stone was actually destroyed. You said it yourself -- they believe it can't be destroyed. And if that's what they believe, its easy enough to craft an explanation that it isn't destroyed despite the nuking of the city.

Think about it. If we nuke Mecca, nobody can go there to look for the stone, can they? So the imams likely will conclude that the stone is still there, undamaged under all the slag. I mean, it has to be still there because it can't be destroyed. Right?

Or maybe they claim that the hand of Allah came down and took the stone away just before the missiles hit. It is now in his hands, and he took it from them because his people did not follow his commands to spread islam and destroy the infidels. They sinned by not following his law. And that he will not return the stone until his people kill off all the infidels. Maybe the variation is that he permitted the nuking of Mecca so that his people could not approach the stone (still there, undamaged) because they have sinned.

We've seen similar things in religion throughout history. Someone predicts Jesus will return at a specific time and place, or that some miracle will occur to prove something to everyone. And when Jesus doesn't make his designated appearance, or the miracle doesn't occur, the prophet then claims that there was some intervening cause or reason, and just twists that to his purpose anyway so you'll send him more money.

I came up with two perfectly valid explanations moslems clerics could make, and that's just me sitting here. I'm sure they could do better. And more likely than not, twist the nuking of Mecca into a sign from Allah that they've sinned, and need to kill the infidels to expiate those sins.

[John Filson]

I can send him the Coldwell Banker number if he'd like or loan him my RealTracs password.

Arab Links on Dingell's house.gov page.

There's a whole list of goodies. Not all suggest he might be a quisling, but taken together, there's no reason to doubt it.

This is the cost of Arab and other Muslim ghettos in America: whole congressional districts owned by the enemy.

[XJarhead]

Not to mention that this chunk of Allah fallen to earth apparently already has been stolen and broken, and is now held together only with a silver band and nails. Yet, Islam apparently survived this obvious demonstration that the Stone can be damaged.

[Kirkwood]

"And how many times has this happened in Islam?"

Why do you think terrorists are fighting an Iraqi democracy tooth and nail? Why are they murdering their own muslim people in droves both in Iraq and in Afghanistan? It is because they fear a cultural reformation of Islam if democratic freedoms are established. Doesn't that tell you anything? It tells me that muslim fanatics fear western culture more than our military, so we need to drive more western ideas deep into the heart of muslim culture. I would love to see Saudi Arabia next in our sights for cultural reform and for the US to support a cultural revolution in Iran.

While I strongly support military action against terrorism whenever possible, the military alone can't possibly win a cultural war. Saber rattling can often make it harder to win a cultural war, not easier. Blowing things up just because you can is a piss-poor use of military power.

[wardaddy]

there are actually FReepers who believe the more Muslims here the better.

i would not believe it if I had not seen it written here with my own eyes.

[John Filson]

I suppose it's for diversity.

[JCEccles]

Following your logic, we just have to surrender, I guess. The Muslims are smarter, tougher, and more dedicated than we are. Nothing we can do will really harm them. The harder we strike at them, the more angry and powerful they become. They're superhuman.

Where were you when we built bombers and missiles and targeted cities and nations ruled by communists? A few more voices like yours and we would have avoided the foolish arms race. We would have just recognized the superiority of communism and the invincibility of its soldiers and simply surrendered to them. Think of the money we could have saved.

Appeasement and surrender are so underrated.

[Travis McGee]

That's the flaw in the logic predicting the demise of islam if you desroy the stone -- you can't ever prove the stone was actually destroyed. You said it yourself -- they believe it can't be destroyed. And if that's what they believe, its easy enough to craft an explanation that it isn't destroyed despite the nuking of the city.

First, the entire discussion is predicated upon the USA having several cities destroyed by Islaomfascist nuclear bombs. The question then, is how would we respond.

As far as the Imam's claiming the black stone was just fine, under the slag, that's laughable. Muslims believe the Kaaba goes back to ADAM, and the black stone to Gabriel, Abraham and Ishmail, and that the black stone has been on the corner of the Kaaba since then. It IS the power of Allah. No way would Allah allow the Grand Mosque, the Kaaba or the black stone to be wiped from the earth. It's not possible, to their thinking. If allah exists, if allah is real and all-powerful, then allah's own exact sign to humankind, the Kaaba and the black stone, must also exist.

No Kaaba and no black stone: no Islam.

Two of the five pillars of Islam, the only two with a physical reality and location, disappear, if Mecca is turned into a crater.

(If you don't know the five pillars of Islam, backwards and forwards, it is not even worth having a discussion with you.)

So there is no fallback position, no reinventing islam, if Mecca is craterized (after a nuclear attack by Islamofascists on the USA.)

[wardaddy]

They are naive.

[Travis McGee]

I believe they are just enemies of the USA, and believe the more enemies imported into the USA to destroy it in the end, the better.

Quislings.

Unless of course, they are not Americans at all, but are simply false flag freepers, lying about their national loyalty.

[XJarhead]

It IS the power of Allah. No way would Allah allow the Grand Mosque, the Kaaba or the black stone to be wiped from the earth. It's not possible, to their thinking.

You say that, but I've never seen anything in moslem doctrine confirming that. That's your spin. And I've read comments from moslems saying how the moslem world might react if Mecca was destroyed by a nuke. Interestingly, not a one of them said "that can never happen".

Also, as I noted, the stone was stolen for 30 years, and is in several pieces held together only by a silver band. But the religion did not collapse. In fact, the veneration of the stone and the Kaaba both predated Islam anyway.

No Kaaba and no black stone: no Islam.

Says you. Find me a reputable moslem scholar who says that. I haven't seen one.

Two of the five pillars of Islam, the only two with a physical reality and location, disappear, if Mecca is turned into a crater.

It doesn't necessarily affect the salah -- they could still pray to Mecca anyway. As for the Hajj, it is one of the five pillars as of now, but that doesn't mean the religion would collapse if they couldn't go to Mecca. Just means 4 pillars instead of 5, or maybe they just modify it. Heck, despite the requirement of the Hajj, a great many moslems never make it there due to lack of funds. And they're still moslems.

Your claim that the religion would just collapse is just an assumption on your part. That's how you spin the effect of the destruction of Mecca. "Well, they've got these five pillars, and if one goes, poof." But like I said, unless moslem clerics agree, then your view of what happens to their religion doesn't matter much.

[XJarhead]

Following your logic, we just have to surrender, I guess. The Muslims are smarter, tougher, and more dedicated than we are. Nothing we can do will really harm them. The harder we strike at them, the more angry and powerful they become. They're superhuman.

You've got it backwards, skippy. They're not smarter, tougher, or more dedicated. That's why we can defeat the islamo-fascists without doing something as stupid as bombing Mecca. If you think that's the only way to win, then you're the defeatist. Because you think the type of hard, slogging fight we've got in Afghanistan and Iraq and elsewhere can't succeed. No, we've got to nuke Mecca. Sheesh....

Where were you when we built bombers and missiles and targeted cities and nations ruled by communists?

Let's see....Okinawa, Korea, the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and a bunch of bases in the United States. Wherever the Marine Corps needed an artillery officer at the time.

A few more voices like yours and we would have avoided the foolish arms race.

Say, don't you have a nice high horse there! I should congratulate you on being the poster child for the Reagan defense buildup. I mean, nobody else supported it, right? So the credit is all yours. Congratulations!

Apparently, because I think bombing or threatening to bomb Teheran, Damascas, or Riyadh would make more sense than bombing Mecca, I'm a pansy on defense issues, and obviously didn't support the Reagan defense buildup. There's some logic you've got there....

We would have just recognized the superiority of communism and the invincibility of its soldiers and simply surrendered to them. Think of the money we could have saved.

Speak for yourself. I think it was money well spent. But hey, if you think differently, I suppose you're entitled to your own opinion.

Appeasement and surrender are so underrated.

Really now, there's no reason to get so defeatist about this. You're giving up far too easily. Personally, I have more faith that our Armed Forces can do the job of defeating islamo-fascism without dropping nukes on Mecca. But maybe you don't, so you see it as the only way out. You should give our troops more credit than that.

[Allegra]

Better yet Eric, let's see YOU walk down the street in any of these muslim countries and let's see how long it takes you to assume room temperature. Put up or shut up. The religion of peace would use your head for a paint bucket.

Better sources than you say otherwise.

While I don't take casual strolls around Baghdad, it is due to the high concentration of Al-Qaeda here, not because of the general population. I have and do get out into the city frequently enough and it does not resemble what the media portrays at all.

I interact with Iraqis of both the Sunni and the Shiite sects every day. First of all, they get along with each other just fine. Secondly, they are some of the most warm, generous and happy people I have met. Their sense of humor is very similar to that of Americans. The younger Iraqis are emulating Americans in thier musical, pop culture and fashion tastes.

The media is distorting things and lying. Yes, there are some locals who don't like us at all, but most of them are terrorists or former Ba'ath Party elites (frequently one and the same.) Most of the Iraqis are much like we are. They hate the terrorists as much as we do. They just want peace, freedom and prosperity.

Many of them put their right hands over their hearts when they see us. I once asked why they do that and was told it was a gesture of gratitude.

I've been here a year and a half and my head is still attached to my body. ;-)

[I_dmc]

One could almost be tempted to call him a Dingellberry.

[MikefromOhio]

E,

You are discussing this topic is Tancredo fans. Nothing based in common sense OR decency will get through to them.

NEVER MIND that you can walk the streets in Kabul or Riyadh or Kirkuk or Doha or Kuwait City or Abu Dahbi (All Muslim the last time I checked) without having to worry. NEVER MIND that Baghdad will be that way one day soon.

It just isn't worth debating with these people anymore. They HAVEN'T been there. They WON'T ever been there (hopefully they won't be needed to be there) and they will NEVER fully know how wrong they truly are.

[kittymyrib]

Dingell has the makings of a fine dhimmi, which is understandable when the Muslim call to prayer rings out over Michigan cities now. (Christian churches have had to stop playing hymns on their carrilons, of course.) Dems/Dhims are just looking for the terrorist vote.

[Allegra]

NEVER MIND that you can walk the streets in Kabul or Riyadh or Kirkuk or Doha or Kuwait City or Abu Dahbi (All Muslim the last time I checked) without having to worry.

And Bahrain, and Dhahran, and Dubai, and Amman....

And Erbil, Iraq now, too.

My company has a site there and I'm trying to wrangle a trip up there so I can do just that. ;-)

[tet68]

Well, it's true, my intellect is somewhat puny
however it doesn't take much intellect to know when
someone is out to kill you and destroy everything
you hold dear.

I knew when communists were trying to kill me, that wasn't hard.
I know when Islamic fanatics are trying to kill me, that isn't hard.
I know when all their rhetoric, their "holy" books,
their "holy" men see my civilization , my beliefs,
my loved ones as beneath contempt, as a target of war.
I only have to read and hear what they are saying
everyday.
I only have to witness the terror they are supporting and spreading everyday.

I only have to BELIEVE AS THEY DO that they are intent
on world domination to see this.

Now you with your higher intellect may feel you can reach
some kind of detente with them and accept the dhimmi status
they are willing to grant you.
I would of course prefer to see an Islamic reformation but as yet I see no evidence of that, and please pay attention as your superiour intellect seems to have missed the fact that a strike on Mecca would only come after a use of WMD here in the States, in fact, it might take two before we could bring ourselves to do it. Do not make the mistake the Islamics are making in thinking we are so soft we won't. t.