ACLU backs Wiccan suit

The Washington Times ^ | 8-10-05 | Dionne Walker

[JZelle]

RICHMOND -- Civil liberties lawyers have appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court to allow a Wiccan priestess to offer prayers before a public board's meetings. Cynthia Simpson was turned down in 2002 when she asked the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors to add her name to the list of people who customarily open the board's meetings with a religious invocation. The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the suburban Richmond county. In their petition, received by the court yesterday, American Civil Liberties Union lawyers accuse the federal appeals court of trying to "obscure with legal smoke and mirrors" Chesterfield's preference for mainline religions. "Although Establishment Clause jurisprudence may be beset with conflicting tests, uncertain outcomes and ongoing debate, one principle has never been compromised ... that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another," ACLU attorneys wrote in their 13-page filing. County officials said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian beliefs and religions based on a single god.

[FormerLib]

What's next? Inviting Tom Cruise to give the Scientologist viewpoint?

[Madeleine Ward]

Thanks for not answering my question.

I don't care if Wicca is a religious sect or not, although I doubt you know what you are talking about.

[Dawsonville_Doc]

Possible Interest ping.

[Ignatius J Reilly]

Wow you're opinion of Wiccans is amazing. You may be right about a lot of the qualities you listed but you are wrong aboput one thing - They ARE a religous sect. They just believe in a different invisible magical entity than you.

[Leatherneck_MT]

A Cult does not a religion make.

[Bluegrass Conservative]

So the stifling of religious expression of people that happen to hold public office is logical?

There is no stifling. No one seems to have a problem with a moment for personal prayer.

Abolishing group prayer by elected representatives is logical?

Yes, because if you allow a Christian prayer, how do you keep from allowing a Muslim prayer? A Jewish prayer? A Hindu prayer? And, if you allow those, where does it stop? Wiccan? Satanic?

[exile]

"I don't care if Wicca is a religious sect or not, although I doubt you know what you are talking about."

Not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me before. I'm just a guy who hates hippies.

[Dunstan McShane]

I feel the need to debate the provisions in the Constitution.

If you want to allow prayer in government, then where in the Constitution does it allow you to deny any religion the right to have their prayer included?

The Constitution, for good or for ill, was constructed during a time when, rightly or wrongly, its framers considered that we had arrived at an age in which most reasonable men would accept at least the deistic concept of a just (but remote) God, and perhaps the theistic idea of a just and directly-involved God. It had not entered their heads to believe that educated people would embrace ancient, abandoned creeds of tree-and-star-worship any more than they would revive the sacrifice of bulls to Mithras, or the tossing of infants into the fires of Moloch. They beleived in the onward march of human progress (a rather newish idea at the time) and the innate decency and sanity of human beings. They really believed that humans, freed from oppression, would reveal their inner, truly good selves. They did not count on the spite and bile that would erupt later, spit in the faces of these assumptions, and use the very mechanisms of the Constitution to pee on the sort of nation that the Constitution was intended to produce.

Civilized people of good will do not have to spell out the obvious. Those who cannot or will not see the obvious regard the absence of explicit prohibition as permission.

Or something.

[Bluegrass Conservative]

They are a bunch of sexually confused, birkenstock wearing, henna tattoo getting, patchouli-scented, Cherry Garcia eating, tree-hugging losers, who think that if they wear enough black and say the right incantations, the lord of darkness will appear and get them a date.

HEY!!!! Don't know the Cherry Garcia until you try it. :-)

[rattrap]

Oooh Logic. This should be interesting. You might want to put on two suits.

[goldstategop]

Its funny. This is the same ACLU that's tried to ban Christian prayers and Bible reading. But pagan rituals pose no religion and state problem. They really are anti-Christian - not anti-religion. It all depends on what faith you profess.

(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)

[joebuck]

"If Christians get to say Christian prayers at a public meeting, why can't another religion?"

This doesn't fly. Using this logic, based on freedom of speech, I could argue that everyone who wants to has a right to testify before any congressional committe which invites people to appear and testify for or against any pending issue. I mean, it isn't fair to let some give their opinion to congress and not others if we have freedom of speech - congress would be discriminating against my point of view. No one should buy such a stained interpetation of freedom of speech nor should they buy the same strained interpetation of the establishment clause.

[Chode]

question: now that they've sued FOR prayer... how can they ever sue AGAINST it again???

[over3Owithabrain]

Excellent - post 48!

It's really is a tragedy how the intent of the Fathers' has bit them and this country in the butt.

[Texas_Jarhead]

"There is no stifling. No one seems to have a problem with a moment for personal prayer."

Do you even hear yourself? You say no stifling by replacing public spoken expression with a moment of silence.

"Yes, because if you allow a Christian prayer, how do you keep from allowing a Muslim prayer? A Jewish prayer? A Hindu prayer? And, if you allow those, where does it stop? Wiccan? Satanic?"

With the exception of fedgov why would any group be forced allow X?

[exile]

"They just believe in a different invisible magical entity than you."

Actually, I'm Agnostic. There may be a "magical entity" out there, maybe not. I don't know. As I said before, I'm just a guy who hates hippies.

[skip_intro]

Isn't the whole point of swearing on the Bible supposed to make you fear not telling the truth?

My point is that it's not going to stop with the Koran.

Since all religions are equally valid, all will have to be accepted.

Scientology, wiccan, the religion you just invented this morning.

All of them.

[Dead Corpse]

Possible. But not much. Same old same old. Been going on here since I started posting.

Hail Odin...

[ndt]

" My point is that it's not going to stop with the Koran."

Why should it? Swear on whatever you feel like, you still under the threat incarceration if you lie.

" wiccan, the religion you just invented this morning."

OK, you lost me on that, I have no idea what you mean.

[Madeleine Ward]

You still do not answer my question.

I know one Wiccan, and although I do not know much about their religion, I do know that she is a law-abiding, moral and decent person. She doesn't toss babies into fire. She is civilized. So, I'm not sure how a Wiccan wanting to pray at a public meeting pees on the Constitution. Please enlighten me.