Posted on 08/14/2005 1:25:44 PM PDT by adam_az
Edited on 08/14/2005 1:28:27 PM PDT by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
Live thread for posting breaking news about the Gaza Explulsion which is set to begin within the hour...
LOL, you aren't kidding. I HATE the Ha'aretz forum and try to avoid it like the plague. GAG
The Israelis have made a HUGE concession so now it is the turn of the Palis to make a concession.
But no, they are saying (and the MSM is parroting the same line) that the next step should be MORE CONCESSIONS by Israel, because ethnic cleansing of Gaza is worthless unless even more territory is made Judenrein.
Abbas has a whole shopping list of more concessions he wants from Israel, but he hasn't lifted a finger to do even what he is required according to the "road map" and nobody sees anything wrong with this.
I believe the Jews in the Gaza strip shouldn't be surprised that the political powers kicked them out of their homes. Jews and Palestinians have had a very tough time East of Jerusalem and it is blamed on the political powers of today. The sad part about this situation is that no matter how legitimate the Palestinians cause is, they will be nothing without the Jews in Gaza. The Palestinians have no chance at building an economy and maintaining jobs when civilization is cut off to them by barriers. I believe Imperialist Jews will win in the long run with Sharon's move because Gaza will be in shambles under Palestinian control and the joblessness will lead to more terror requiring Israels hand in the regions politics.
You’re not “butting in”, Eurotwit. You are providing a European perspective just as I am providing my perspective of the military situation as a non-Jewish supporter of Israel. Our opinions may be right or they may be wrong. Be that as it may, the Israeli and non-Israeli Jewish readers of this thread know that we do not have any Israeli political axes to grind.
Israel has never had any “good” options.
Life is tough. You have to deal with it.
On May 15, 1948, on the eve of the invasion of the Arab armies, the Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, laid out the Arab war aims in unambiguous terms: “This,” he said, “will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.”
Arrayed against the fledgling Israeli nation were the armies of not mere terrorist groups but of Arab nation-states.
The Arab nation-states came, they fought, they lost.
Cest la guerre.
At this time, Israel’s problems split, like an amoeba, and the so-called “Palestinian” was created.
You can waste much time pretending that the “Palestinian” does not historically exist or that he should not historically exist but that is merely playing with words and names.
The bottom line is that the term means Arabs or descendants of Arabs that used to reside in the British Protectorate of Palestine prior to the 1948 war.
In my library, I have 1954 and 1955 volumes of “Foreign Affairs” journal. In a January 1955 article, Major-General Moshe Dayan refers to these individual as “Palestinian Arabs”……..as opposed to “Egyptian Arabs” or “Jordanian Arabs” or “Syrian Arabs” or Arabs living in any other political entity at the time.
In another October 1954 article by Don Peretz of the American Jewish Committee entitled “The Arab Refugee Dilemma”, the figures were put forth that, in the Egyptian Gaza Strip, more than 200,000 of these “Palestinian Arabs” “outnumber the natives (Egyptian Arabs) there four to one”. The Arab nation-states, however, were not eager to assimilate these “Palestinian Arab” refugees. As a result, the author of this 1954 article observed that these “Palestinian Arabs” had already developed a “professional refugee mentality “with a hatred of Great Britain, the United States, the United Nations and Israel, in that order.”
These “Palestinian Arabs” had a lot to be angry about. According to Peretz’s 1954 article, “Today (1954), nearly half the new Jewish immigrants live in homes abandoned by Arabs. They occupy nearly 400 Arab towns and villages. About a quarter of the buildings now in use in Israel formerly were Arab property. The Arabs left over 10,000 shops and stores in Jewish hands. The Israel Custodian of Absentee Property took over more than 4,000,000 dunams of former Arab land, or nearly 60% of the county’s cultivable area. This was nearly two and a half times the total Jweish-owned property at the time the State of Israel was established and includes most of its olive orchards, a large part of its fruit and vegetable crop land and almost half the citrus.”
Do I feel sorry for these people?
Sure I do……..
………….Right up until I go back and remember the words of Azzam Pasha: “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.”
In that context, the Palestinian Arabs got off rather easily.
The 1954 Peretz article also observed that the Arab nation-states were “eager for Round Two” of the fight with Israel.
Well, they got Round Two, Round Three and Round Four in the 1956 war, the Seven Day War and the Yom Kippur War and, in all rounds, the Arab nation-states got their butts soundly kicked.
Ever since, the Arab nation-states have lost the stomach for war with Israel.
That, however, still leaves the “Palestinian Arabs”……The “professional refugees”……The people so filled with hatred that Israel cannot take them back into Israel proper ……..The people that even the Arab nation states won’t take…..The people who still remember that grandfather owned an olive grove in what is now Israel.
These people carry one hundred times more hatred in them than is healthy for a human being.
But, after the Seven Day War, who gets stuck with the with them?
Israel.
That is definitely not a “good” situation.
Throughout history, whenever a population has been conquered through war, the choices have been:
1. Extermination……………Nazi Germany’s choice with the Jews
2. Expulsion………………..The Soviet Union’s choice with the conquered Germans in East Prussia.
3. Reformation……………..The United States’ choice with the conquered Nazi Germany.
4. Assimilation……………..The United States’ choice with the American Indian
5. Perpetual Occupation……The choice that has failed every single European colonial power faced with occupying a hostile population.
6. Part Ways………………... Britain’s choices with Ireland, India and, yes, Palestine.
So, what should Israel do with these hatred-filled “Palestinian Arabs”?
Exterminate them?.........Israel is not Nazi Germany.
Expel them from Gaza?......Not really an option in the year 2005.
Reform them into peaceful, loving people?..........Hysterical laughter.
Assimilation into Israeli society?.........Cardiac arrest.
Perpetual Occupation?
Let’s stop here.
This is what Israel has been doing since1967 and it is draining Israel’s life blood.
As Sharon has said, the Gaza Palestinian Arabs are now 1.5 million and will double with every generation.
Israel simply does not have the resources to occupy millions of hate-filled fanatics that even fellow Arabs will not welcome into their own societies.
That leaves Option Number Six: Part Ways.
However, the parting must be complete and secure.
"Intifada" means "Uprising".
You can't have an "uprising" against someone who has gone home and is no longer there.
The Israeli Wall is not an option. It is a necessity. Israelis on one side of the Wall and the Palestinian Arabs on the other. Israel must cut its dependence on Palestinian Arab cheap labor. Fly in Mexican guest workers on El Al if you must but the Palestinian Arab is simply too hate-filled and violent to travel back and forth from Gaza to Israel.
Is that too risky?
Go back to the year 1948 when the Arab nation-states (now wanting absolutely no part of another war with Israel) wanted a total extermination of the State of Israel.
Compared to that, Hammas and every Palestinian Arab in Gaza is a joke.
With the complete parting of the ways between Israelis and Palestinian Arabs, the built up Palestinian Arab hatred will be unleashed internally and the fanatics and the slightly less fanatics will be killing each other within Gaza.
Attacks against Israel will be met with air power, armor and artillery. No more foot patrols in hate-filled Arab streets.
I don’t know if God intended for Israel to rule Gaza. If that is somebody’s belief nothing that anyone can say will change his mind.
I am saying what makes military sense to me.
"The Philistines were not originally of Greek origin -- they were around way before Alexander the Great conquered the region and Hellenized the whole Eastern Mediteranean."
The Phillistines were most likely Mycenean, or something close to it. I don't think hellenic refers only to POST Alexander, especially since he wasn't properly a Greek either... he was Macedonian.
Works for me!
I was thinking of a post 1948 hero ;-)
He was, I believe, Mechachem Begin.
"Throughout history, whenever a population has been conquered through war, the choices have been:
1. Extermination……………Nazi Germany’s choice with the Jews"
This is the second time you have made a similar statement. What war did European Jews lose to the Germans? When did the European Jews fight the Germans? Your statement makes it sound (inadvertantly I will credit) as if the German's had to "exterminate" a warring Jewish insurgency in their midsts.
...............
As to your other points,you have omitted two important pieces.
"Attacks against Israel will be met with air power, armor and artillery. No more foot patrols in hate-filled Arab streets.'
A change to that tactic could have been implemented with Jewish communities in Gaza. It did not for the reasons it will not occur after disengagement -- civilian deaths,and the humanitarian and PR issues they elicit.
....................
"These “Palestinian Arabs” had a lot to be angry about. According to Peretz’s 1954 article, “Today (1954), nearly half the new Jewish immigrants live in homes abandoned by Arabs. They occupy nearly 400 Arab towns and villages. About a quarter of the buildings now in use in Israel formerly were Arab property. The Arabs left over 10,000 shops and stores in Jewish hands. The Israel Custodian of Absentee Property took over more than 4,000,000 dunams of former Arab land, or nearly 60% of the county’s cultivable area. This was nearly two and a half times the total Jweish-owned property at the time the State of Israel was established and includes most of its olive orchards, a large part of its fruit and vegetable crop land and almost half the citrus.”
Jews decimated in Hitler's Europe and Jews kicked out of Arab lands they had lived in for centuries, forced to leave with nothing despite extensive wealth, had "a lot to be angry about" too. Jews lost more than the Palis ever did. Whole families wiped out. Entire cultures destroyed.
But they moved on and made new lives. They did not become perpetual refugees, haters and killers. More Jews were expelled from Arab lands than Arabs from Israel.
.................
I heard Victor Davis Hanson on John Bachelor show tonight. He made a very similar point about retreat to the one you made. He said that retreat, though sometimes necessary, is always treated as a 'victory' by the other side.
Isn't that the Clinton who vowed to take a rifle and haul his sorry ass over to the Jordan River?
With friends like that, they don't need any more enemies. I say lock and load, with middle fingers extended. I'm not going to comment on Iraq right now. Maybe in 6 months.
I'm not too optimistic, but I love your scenario : )
please add me to this ping list...thanks
I agree
Here's an excerpt from his biography "Moshe Dayan: The Story of My Life" as found here at imra.org - Moshe Dayan on handling of Temple Mount and Cave of the PatriarchsNice find. Clearly Dayan, who most consider one of Israel's greatest heroes, had respect for the Muslims(and vice versa).
-Eric
It says he is showing good sense, to remove the jihadist infestation of the Temple Mount. The Muslim Arabs there are thieves and usurpers.The mosques were built over 500 years after the destruction of the Temple. They were built by the Muslim conquerors of Jerusalem, who incidentally took the city with the support of the Jewish population.
Your view is contrary to that of Dayan and every Israeli government since, and of course the US government as well.
-Eric
The fact that you'd include him says more about your views than the general views of the man in Israel.
-Eric
I was thinking of a post 1948 hero ;-)There are paralells between Begin and Sharon. Both began as controversial hardliners, and both traded land for peace, removing settlements as part of the process.He was, I believe, Mechachem Begin.
-Eric
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