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In Explaining Life's Complexity, Darwinists and Doubters Clash
NY Times ^ | August 22, 2005 | KENNETH CHANG

Posted on 08/22/2005 3:29:51 AM PDT by Pharmboy

At the heart of the debate over intelligent design is this question: Can a scientific explanation of the history of life include the actions of an unseen higher being?

The proponents of intelligent design, a school of thought that some have argued should be taught alongside evolution in the nation's schools, say that the complexity and diversity of life go beyond what evolution can explain.

Biological marvels like the optical precision of an eye, the little spinning motors that propel bacteria and the cascade of proteins that cause blood to clot, they say, point to the hand of a higher being at work in the world.

In one often-cited argument, Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University and a leading design theorist, compares complex biological phenomena like blood clotting to a mousetrap: Take away any one piece - the spring, the baseboard, the metal piece that snags the mouse - and the mousetrap stops being able to catch mice.

Similarly, Dr. Behe argues, if any one of the more than 20 proteins involved in blood clotting is missing or deficient, as happens in hemophilia, for instance, clots will not form properly.

Such all-or-none systems, Dr. Behe and other design proponents say, could not have arisen through the incremental changes that evolution says allowed life to progress to the big brains and the sophisticated abilities of humans from primitive bacteria.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; behe; crevolist; darwinists; enoughalready; evolution; inteldesign; makeitstop
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To: jwalsh07
You have a right to life, if some mook murders you, he doesn't take the right he takes your life.

Well, if you're dead, I highly doubt that you still have the "right to life", and if you do, it's pretty irrelevant, isn't it?
201 posted on 08/22/2005 2:58:54 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: Junior
Are you incapable of logical thought?

If you really believed that, you would not be answering me, would you? In fact I'm just following the chain of the internal logic of your belief system and apparently I've touched a nerve because you're now resorting to insults.

Or do you simply fall back on feel-good platitudes when you have nothing else to say.

Do you call the arguments of others "feel-good" platitudes when you cannot refute them?

Do you have any idea of the meaning of "enlightened self-interest?"

I know what it means -- it is an idea based on the assumption that people who believe it is in their self-interest to see to the welfare of others will always be a large enough percentage of the population to ensure the existence of civilization. Human nature and human history say "fuhget about it" because it is based on the ever shifting sands of mob rule.

Any truly good civilization has to be based on something that either is, or is at least perceived, to be eternal and transcendent. "Enlightened self-interest" is neither eternal nor transcendent.

Besides, it is irrelevant to my point, which is that any philosophy that presupposes no God and no afterlife saws off the very branch it is sitting on, like the lefty war protesters who say that there is no objective morality and in the same breath call the war immoral.

You cannot have a philosophy without stipulating that life has inherent meaning and purpose (unless nihilism is your philosophy).

Yet you cannot say there is no God and no afterlife where justice and mercy are finally made perfect and still profess that life has inherent meaning and purpose. At that point, everything becomes purely subjective and life has no transcendent meaning that is independent of what anyone thinks of it. Your moods and emotions of the moment are the law that is rewritten minute by minute. There are no facts, no truth; only opinions, desires, impulses and appetites.

That you airily dismiss whole fields of ethics and philosophy as the "movement of meaningless molecules in a meaningless universe" does not speak well of your intellectual abilities.

In other words, that I disagree with you means I'm stupid.

Follow what I said: If we just live and die by chance in a universe that came into existence by chance, all the "enlightened self-interest", all the fields of ethics and philosophy -- all fields of learning PERIOD, that have ever been or will ever be -- are meaningless. Your life and every life is just a bunch stuff that happens for no reason at all. Everything is futile.

You can pretend that life has meaning and purpose, but at the end of the day, like a child playing make believe cops and robbers with his friends, darkness comes and you have to stop playing and go to sleep, never to wake up again.

202 posted on 08/22/2005 2:59:08 PM PDT by Zhangliqun (Hating Bush does not count as a strategy for defeating Islamic terrorism.)
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To: b_sharp

A single species is a population where gene flow can occur between the extremes of morphology within the species.
***Thanks for posting that. When I read about a Lion & Tiger mating to form a Liger, and it's capable of reproducing, does that mean that Lion & Tiger are in the same species?


203 posted on 08/22/2005 2:59:53 PM PDT by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Torie
The idea is that humans have certain rights, which can only be adbridged, never alienated, because such rights are inextricably linked to the very notion of what it means to be human.

Rights, like freedom, are not free. Along with inalienable rights comes responsibility. Irresponsibly violating somebody elses rights means Uncle gets a crack at you. It's all right there in the DOI and Constitution.

204 posted on 08/22/2005 3:02:53 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Zhangliqun
If there is a God, you get your rights back and theirs are taken away forever (barring repentance of course), so your rights are in fact permanent and eternal, they are just momentarily on hold.

Of course, this changes based on which God we're talking about.
205 posted on 08/22/2005 3:03:06 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: jwalsh07
Your entire post is worthless, except for the history part, I rather enjoyed that.

Well, then allow me to return your compliment ;)

206 posted on 08/22/2005 3:04:25 PM PDT by BMCDA (Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent. -- L. Wittgenstein)
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To: Vive ut Vivas
Well, if you're dead, I highly doubt that you still have the "right to life", and if you do, it's pretty irrelevant, isn't it?

In your world, yes it is irrelevant, the guy that punched your ticket just goes merrily along his way.

Rights are a concept, you can't shoot them, you can't cut the throat of one with a kabar and you can't blow them up. They transcend your life and mine. Wonderful little things.

207 posted on 08/22/2005 3:05:19 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Vive ut Vivas
Of course, this changes based on which God we're talking about.

Which always comes down to which interpretation of God.

208 posted on 08/22/2005 3:05:40 PM PDT by BMCDA (Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent. -- L. Wittgenstein)
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To: BMCDA

Noted.


209 posted on 08/22/2005 3:05:50 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: RobRoy
And what of the times he had other nations virtually wipe out all but a remnant of Israel? A lot of lessons are being taught to all of mankind in the old testament through the history of the Jews, their suffering, conquests, instructions, failure to follow those instructions and on and on. And it culminates in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus, the Christ.

Ouch. Wouldn't it be easier and less painful to just specify in the Bible what the rights are and who has them?
210 posted on 08/22/2005 3:06:37 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: Vive ut Vivas
Of course, this changes based on which God we're talking about.

Your answer focuses only on human perception. There either is a God or there isn't, and this is a fact utterly independent of what anyone thinks of it or how anyone perceives it:

a) If there is a God, then this does not change at all; only human perception of God changes from time to time and person to person.

b) If there is no God, then this (along with everything else in the universe) does not matter.

211 posted on 08/22/2005 3:07:58 PM PDT by Zhangliqun (Hating Bush does not count as a strategy for defeating Islamic terrorism.)
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To: Vive ut Vivas
Ouch. Wouldn't it be easier and less painful to just specify in the Bible what the rights are and who has them?

The Bible does exactly that. And besides, life is about far more than just avoidance of difficulty and pain.

212 posted on 08/22/2005 3:10:59 PM PDT by Zhangliqun (Hating Bush does not count as a strategy for defeating Islamic terrorism.)
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To: Kevin OMalley

They'd better not be presenting abiogenesis at all in relation to evolution.

Unless they also want to do such things as teach plant taxonomy as a part of astronomy.

ID of course can be taught in a philosophy class, or it can be held up as a bad example of pseudo science in a biology class...sort of "this is what not to do if you think you're doing research"

As for your 400 scientists, check PatrickHenry's home page for sites that thoroughly debunk that.


213 posted on 08/22/2005 3:13:08 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: Zhangliqun
I'm failing to see your point. You said in #178 that "If there is a God, you get your rights back and theirs are taken away forever (barring repentance of course), so your rights are in fact permanent and eternal, they are just momentarily on hold." That refers to a particular religious belief.
214 posted on 08/22/2005 3:15:11 PM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: JohnnyM
Yes there was. The Israelites had very stern property rights laws. Read leviticus and Numbers. There is much about redemption of land and land ownership. Of course, these properties rights did not extend to those outside of Israel.

You are right, of course. I was dealing primarily with human and property rights in the bible in terms of Israelite 'foreign policy'. Within the nation of Israel itself, laws about property rights, human rights, etc., etc., were very extensive, detailed, meticulous and, as I said before, very cutting edge.

215 posted on 08/22/2005 3:15:15 PM PDT by Zhangliqun (Hating Bush does not count as a strategy for defeating Islamic terrorism.)
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To: jwalsh07
Sorry. Poorly phrased.

There is a reasonable case to be made that the "we" in the preamble was intended to cover male property owners, consonant with the political realities of the time. And I tend to view the subsequent expansion of "we" to include previously disenfranchised groups more as a product of truce between warring factions (together with a pragmatic recognition of the need for establishing and maintaining civil order) than any abstract adherence to overarching, religiously based concepts or rules.

Indeed, the progressive expansion of rights and the progressive inclusion of the deliberately dienfranchised in the US has, in a great many instances, been achieved despite agressive, scripturally based arguments to the contrary.

Ultimately, I tend to agree with those who argue that the plural social construct we now take for granted was much more the product of evolving western "legalities" than any appreciation for, or adherence to, Christian precepts. Indeed, I would argue that it was a necessity in most instances to deliberately separate rationales for the protection of perceived rights from religious justifications because explicit Biblical antecedents are somewhat scarce, and because there is wide (and emotional) disagreement about the proper interpretation of the Biblical antecedents that do exist.

216 posted on 08/22/2005 3:16:05 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: Vive ut Vivas
Wouldn't it be easier and less painful to just specify in the Bible what the rights are and who has them?

Try the Decalogue.

217 posted on 08/22/2005 3:16:43 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Vive ut Vivas
That refers to a particular religious belief.

Actually it refers to three, the three monotheistic faiths: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All three preach that everything will be sorted out justly in the afterlife. P.S. Likewise I'm failing to see your point.

218 posted on 08/22/2005 3:18:37 PM PDT by Zhangliqun (Hating Bush does not count as a strategy for defeating Islamic terrorism.)
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To: gridlock
If evolution has nothing to do with the existance of God, why are you so worked up on the subject?

I'm fascinated by irrationality. I personally can't understand what drives people to deny valid science simply because they don't want it to be true. Why the hell do you think that the theory makes claims as to the existence of any gods?
219 posted on 08/22/2005 3:19:08 PM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: JohnnyM
America has taken land and property from foreign enemies countless times and you wouldn't argue against this as violating their rights.

But America did not take the land at the express behest of God, who some are claiming is the source of all rights.

220 posted on 08/22/2005 3:19:08 PM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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