Posted on 08/30/2005 6:40:43 AM PDT by StuLongIsland
You are the problem and the real problem is that you don't see what you are doing to your kids. As with any other situation in life, of course one should choose the colleg carefully--vote your money at that point. The smart choice probably is to simply avoid the big-name, big-dollar schools. Some of the newer, smaller, Christian and Catholic schools, while they may not offer the cachet of the Ivy Leagues or the IVL Wannabees, may help your child become a real man or woman far better and, in the long run, that's the ticket for success in life, not a degree from a prestigious university or college. Unfortunately, even some of the long-established Christian schools are flirting with PC stuff now--because they want to be loved and admired by the PC, Ivy-League, and IVL imitator crowd. It's the start-ups (who have no prestige) that have the real education to offer these days. And I speak as one who teaches at a school with in the IVL-Wannabee class.
Of course, one should be on the lookout for any serious danger to one's children. But having chosen a college you trust (and if you did not trust it, then for God's sake, don't throw your $40,000 at it), then let it do its work so that your children can become mature, independent adults.
I have taught in colleges for 30 years. Students today are hopelessly more immature than they were 30 years ago. Universities caved into to the marketing approach, students evaluate the teachers and teachers, who want to be liked as much as anyone else, in subtle ways give the students what they want--so we have grade inflation--80 % As and Bs, which makes the A meaningless and gyps the true 10 % A students of their deserved reward.
But if you try to be tough and give the students the grades they deserve hoping to splash cold water in their faces so they realize what level they truly are at so that they can then take charge of their lives and strengthen themselves---they whine and bitch and complain and run away from the challenge.
At this point the last thing they need is a hovering parent. The parent needs to make clear to the student when she leaves for college that she will have to answer for the grades she gets and she better not waste her time and her parents' money by goofing off, that if she needs a shoulder to cry on that will always be there but not to expect Mommy to fix the situation for her. Mommy and Daddy will help her in whatever way possible to face whatever challenges she encounters but that she, the daughter, is now an adult and has to face life's challenges on her own responsibility. Others will help but they won't enable her to live like a 14 year old when she's 22.
That's for the academic side of things--and parents do constantly undermine teacher's efforts to stiffen up the kids, by taking the student's side when the teacher issues a low grade.
But the same thing applies to plumbing in China or the state of the luxury hotels they now call dormitories.
I'm not suggesting that parents ship kids off to college and insouciantly leave them inccomunicado for 4 years. Colleges no longer act in loco parentis (Tom Wolfe has it pretty much right in I Am Charlotte Simmons,w hich every parent who has a kid in high school or college must read) and parents do need to keep a watchful eye. I've known cases of kids who were overwhelmed by their first semester and ere flunking out (because they were goofing off) and hid it from their parents until it was too late, and we are not permitted by federal law to communicate directly with parents--the kids must be the conduit or else sign a waiver to permit the school to inform the parents--all of which is stupid policy but mandated, so parents have to make sure their kids are telling them the truth about how they are doing at college.
So yes, "hover" in the sense of keeping open good communication. If the child hasn't learned to tell the truth or if you can't tell when he's telling the truth to you or conning you, then that's a problem (one that should have been addressed long before he goes off to college). But assuming you've raised the kid to be a mature young adult, then don't undermine this new stage of learning to face the hard challenges of life. Colleges will not give him very many of them--because colleges are now businesses who market their product to consumers, the "customer is always right" and the students spend most of their time at college being coddled by the school. YOu are paying $40,000 to have your child infantilized, given a swelled head thinking he's in charge because he's paying (he thinks of it that way and the college encourages him to do so, even though his parents are paying--but that makes no difference to my point here--either way, the college coddles because it's good business, marketing sense). For a parent to reinforce that "consumer is always right so do what I say, Ms. Colleg Dean" nonsense only guarantees a 40-year-old baby when your son or daughter reaches that age.
Teachers who try not to coddle students end up with vicious ratings on "Rate YOur Professor" websites and on on the student evaluations that reside in the teachers' personnel file. Parents should be grateful for every hardship and challenge that might happen to befall their dear little sweetie-poo at college. For God's sake, it's so darn hard for children to grow up in our culture; everything today aims to keep them infantilized for their entire lives and that's why we get a man with a 14-year-old maturity level with his finger on the nuclear football while he gets you-know-what services to his nether regions in the Oval Office.
Whatever you do, don't fall for that "I'm buying a product with my money so you better please me" garbage. That's what is ruining higher education. Be vigilant, yes, of course, but be vigilant as a responsible adult--you're supposed to be the adult here, aren't you? The university administrators are wimps, the students are wimps--who will keep the world running if you wimp out? Be vigilant but do everything you can to encourage the college to set some hardships in front of your sweet little baby.
Probably they are calling because Junior is offered a class in Oral Sex or he is being indoctrinated by a commie professor. That's why the college is deterring it.
I think that it's none of the college's business how often you talk to your child or what you talk about. Personally, I think they want to cut off discussion to the parents so that they (the professors and co.) can efficiently indoctrinate our children before we can complain or do anything about it.
My son went to college 10 years ago and we were lucky if we talked to him once a week.
"I was sitting thinking that my parents don't feel the need to call all the time, etc.
"Then I remembered that they never went to college so while they can provide moral support their knowledge of the 'inner workings' is nonexistant. Therefore, its up to me to decide how to handle business."
Well, you could "inform" them of how it works. They probably would love to know but don't want to look "stupid" to you. I know. That's the way we felt because we hadn't gone to college, we felt apprehensive about asking questions about the college workings. Now, ten years later, I just wished we would have been more involved.
"Probably they are calling because Junior is offered a class in Oral Sex or he is being indoctrinated by a commie professor. That's why the college is deterring it."
Wrong. Like it or not, most parents are less concerned with whether the professor is a commie than they are with whether Junior has his own shower or how much Junior will make when he graduates.
And these days, Junior most likely doesn't need a class in oral sex. He or she already knows all about it.
We live in the Northeast, but both of our daughters are going to school in the midwest, one at a church-affiliated school (we're relatively liberal Christians theologically, but believe deeply in the benefits of a Christian environment) in Minnesota, and the other starts in Evanston in a couple of weeks. She will be studying music performance, and her choice was entirely based on the strength of the faculty in her instrument --- and she was lucky enough to get in at her first choice school.
But, and a big but, given the unbelievable costs today, even with some financial aid for many people, it's very difficult as the one paying the bill not to demand the same kind of accountability you'd demand from everyone who provides services to you. And your children are rarely savvy enough to know when they're being fed a line.
That said, parents ought not hover. We are not involved in the day to day activities, but do insist on accountability from the kids for their courses, grades, and personal behavior -- do well and our role will be merely to hear you out, screw up seriously, and we'll be involved. It's a fine line between letting them learn the consequences of their own actions and intervening before they have done irremediable damage to their lives. We're wary of superimposing our own college, graduate and professional school experiences on our kids' situations -- I remember the inaptness of my father superimposing his experiences in college during the Roaring Twenties on me in the mid-1960s -- but we do have a pretty good sense how universities and colleges work and a feel for the kinds of attention you need to pay to your program and work from the beginning.
"Parents are encouraged to take an interest in their student here although parents are requested not to talk to professors directly. I agree with that policy and don't think parents should be involved with the professor as there are other channels that can be followed."
Parents are requested not to talk to professors directly??? What, are the professors so aloof that they can't answer questions from parents? I would have serious concerns & issues as to what type of mealy-mush the professor is teaching if I can't even address questions to some sanctimonious elitist professor. They're certainly not gods as we all know, and 75% or more of them are liberal/left-wing bigots who delight in passing along their anti-American, leftist philosophies to our kids. I love to challenge these elitist bigots.
Did the college refund the money they had collected from the parents of the students who enrolled in the defective program?
Okay, if people insist on using the consumer model, then as a consumer, as the one who pays the bills, you should require (and complain if not supplied) that the college get rid of grade inflation, give only 10-15 % A's, cut out the PC crap and inculcate mature virtues. They could start by reintroducing ROTC, for instance or at least permitting recruiting.
It sounds to me like you have not read I Am Charlotte Simmons Whatever flaws it has, it is far too close to reality to be ignored. So I was not suggesting that you back off and trust the schools you sent your kids to. I'm suggesting a different kind of paying attention than hovering over plumbing in China: demand that the school demand maturity of students (starting with honesty about the quality of their performance instead of telling the students what they want to hear, schmoozing them, flattering them). And if the school won't give you that, then vote with your money and go elsewhere.
I'm serious--the prestige schools are contributing mightily to the plague of immature 40-year-olds. But the mother with her nightie in a knot over plumbing in China was aiding and abetting that malfeasance. Be vigilant and demand quality for your money but the quality you must demand is good, old-fashioned mature virtue and solid academic performance. Sadly, most of the prestige schools no longer know how to deliver this.
I will make one exception: if you have homeschooled or come close to homeschooling even though your children went to public or private high school and if, as a result, your children are mature before they enter college, they just might escape unscathed from a prestige school. They will be assaulted on every side by pressures to destroy their maturity, but the evidence genuine grown-upness is the ability to fight mightily against that. Such college students might do well even at the prestige schools. Again, you really owe it to yourself and your children to read I Am Charlotte Simmons if you can stomach it.
I agree that grade inflation should be eliminated, but I differ on curve grading. I have been in classes (and TA'd for) where no one deserved an "A" by my standards, and I've been in (and taught) classes (usually seminar-sized, if not seminars) were everyone was motivated and most of the students did oustanding work by any measure (including several of us who published our papers in reputable journals). It seems to me that curve grading can unfairly penalize a class full of really serious students or unfairly reward those are the mediocre top of a heap of wretched students. As a VMI man and former army officer, I strongly support both ROTC and recruiting.
I have indeed read I Am Charlotte Simmons and have insisted both my daughters read it. My sense was that enough of it was true to what I saw in my own college, graduate and professional school experiences, and the things I hear from current college students and their parents, to agree with you that there's more truth to it than not.
As I suggested in our post, we were more involved in the selection process than in the actually schooling. With our older daughter, now a junior at St.Olaf, we have not been involved other than in making sure things were done for scholarship applications, education abroad deadlines, and the like. We are having discussions with her -- not the school -- about her majors.
There is an area where the prestige of the schools matter: the overall intellectual capability of the student body. At the top schools virtually all of the students (save the athletic recruits and some of the legacies) are very bright, as you move down to the next tier you find the top kids as good as any, but more variation in ability as classes are filled. Below the second tier, you only occasionally find really bright kids (often you find more of them at community colleges) and lots of very average kids. Even assuming faculties are almost equally talented (at least as far as it matters), ceterus paribus, higher level learning and work will go on where everyone is very bright.
That's what I think, too. The colleges don't want to be responsible to the parents, because they are often interested in propagandizing the kids to their agenda. And then get huffy when the parents interfere.
My husband taught in several Universities. I believe I have a pretty clear understanding of how they work, Dr. College Professor.
That's what I think, too. The colleges don't want to be responsible to the parents, because they are often interested in propagandizing the kids to their agenda. And then get huffy when the parents interfere.
My husband taught in several Universities. I believe I have a pretty clear understanding of how they work, Dr. College Professor.
Perhaps the Professors think higher thoughts than we peons do. Or perhaps they just don't want to be scrutinized closely by peers.
Well, they mention Colgate, which I believe is a private college (if I am wrong please correct me). If we are speaking of a private college, you are talking about (with tuition/room&board/books, etc) $36,000 per year.
My daughter is a senior in hs this year and I am suffering from sticker shock. The in-state tuition at the university we were interested in is running about $18,000 per year (again, with r&b, etc). That amount is about what I was paying 5 years ago for my eldest daughter to attend a public university in Indiana paying out-of-state tuition. And, at that time, private unviersities were running about $30,000 per year.
Honestly, I think the price of tuition in this country is a scandal and one that is not being talked about at all, at least not in terms of the whys or what can be done about it. When they are socking it to you for that kind of cash, parents feel they have a right to complain about the food, or unruly roommates, etc. (The plumbing in China, though, simply shows a parent who is an idiot.)
I'm sure the generation fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan agree with you.
NOT.
Yes, and Amen. Colleges would be wise to reach out to parents, and to include parents in the process.
"Liberals want your money, tell you how to live and after taking your money, expect you to shut the heck up, you are too dumb to tell them what to do with your money." Hear hear. (I love FR).
When the kids live in a dorm, eat mess hall food, and go to classes, they are NOT living on their own in any sense of the word. They are totally dependent on the parents for food and tuition. When they get REAL lives and work, THEN they will be dependent. Until then, the parents are still responsible for them. Therefore we get input and get to 'provide' consequences as necessary.
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