Posted on 09/23/2005 7:37:53 PM PDT by wagglebee
Well respected for his resourcefulness and insight, but Greek warfare disdained victory through trickery.
You will notice that unlike many other pantheons, Greek mythology lacks a god of deceit. This is because the Greeks themselves despised the idea of dishonesty.
The Spartans won the Peloponnesian War of 431-404 B.C. by a trick, at least according to Xenophon, the only surviving contemporary historian who covers that period: Lysander captured the Athenian fleet at Aegospotami in 405 B.C. by fooling the Athenians, and that led to the Athenian surrender some months later.
Earlier, in 413 B.C., the Syracusans tricked the Athenians when they were preparing to retreat from their encampment near Syracuse. That helped seal the fate of the Athenian forces, who were almost all killed or captured...but the Syracusans don't seem to have had any misgivings about fooling the Athenians (who had, after all, been trying to capture their city by siege).
If you look at how Homer portrays Odysseus in the Iliad and the Odyssey, he's definitely one of the good guys.
The Greeks had a trickster spirit named DAIMOS, who was not a god but rather a universal malevolent spirit. Any way you slice it, Daimos does not rise to the level of a Set (Egypt) or Loki (Norse).
And yes, Greek did use deception against Greek very often in the wars between the polis, but that does not mean it was a particularly well-thought of tactic.
No kidding
P.S. Hermes was not a trickster god. He was the God of Commerce and Zeus' messenger.
Very often Greek gods are given more than one power/aspect/portfolio depending on where and how that particular god was worshipped. So, one region of Greece may consider Hermes a trickster, while another does not. The best example of this phenomenon would be Apollo, who was worshipped as a god of the sun, medicine, athletics, and prophecy (probably the most versatile of the gods in this regard).
However, Greek gods regularly come down from Olympus to trick and beguile unsuspecting Greeks. Zeus seduces Leto (amongst others) and begets Heracles, for example. The gods were expected to do no less. Relations between Greeks, however, were supposed to be carried out by different rules.
Greek history is full of examples of even the best generals and politicians being put on trial, and always they are accused of the same things: exceeding their authority, fiscal irresponsibility (or theft), abuse of power, breaking promises, etc. One only has to look at Alcibiades to see this, the greatest traitor and most despised man in Greece. At various times, Thucydides and Pericles (paragons of virtue) are also dragged into "court" and accused of deceptions and lies amongst other things.
Dishonesty and dishonorable actions were even more hated in Ancient Greece than they are today.
Show John this article.
"Dishonesty and dishonorable actions were even more hated in Ancient Greece than they are today."
This part of the the discussion started out by saying that the Greeks disdained trickery in warfare. Whatever the validity of that point, trickery in warfare is a completely different thing from dishonesty in every day life. I know of no society that countenances dishonesty in everyday life.
"Honor and the "rules of war" as they existed at the time required a battle to be won by sheer musce power and numbers, not by trickery. Anyone who would have used brains instead of brawn on the battlefield would have been suspect."
This is certainly an overstatement. At marathon, the Greeks used trickery to make the Persians archers miss them with their first volley. They started out marching steadily, and then at the exact point when they knew the Persians would release their arrows, they started to run.
Almost all strategy and tactics are based insignificant part on trickery. The Greeks certainly believed in strategy and tactics. For example, they had a strongtendency to attack another city whenever it was facing internal weakness and discord.
You bring up a great point: what is the dividing line between strategy and trickery?
I stand by my original point that the Odessey begins by commemding Odesseus for his resourcefulness which most often was trickery (at least in part). Look at his dealings with Polyphemus (Kuklops, Cyclops)--very tricksy, very tricksy.
Or a headless something, running.
Alcibiades was a great man gone wrong. He had tremendous abilities and the best training that Greece in the Age of Pericles could offer, but he went wrong.
I believe that is the significance of the role he plays in Plato's "Symposium."
Odysseus was a great man pure and simple. Achilles had one kind of arete in The Iliad, and Odysseus displays a different kind of arete in The Odyssey. It's clear throughout the poem that all the best Greeks admire him, from kings to swineherds.
Did you see the thread, yesterday, about the sunken bridge that had been uncovered by low water levels in (I think Mexico)- I lost that thread somehow and can't find it again. I only got to read a bit when my computer crashed- so I don't remember the title
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1490076/posts
Photo: Lower water levels reveal medieval bridge in Spanish reservoir
there ye be.
Greek Ping!
From Book One "The Odyssey" by Homer
TELL ME, O MUSE, of that ingenious hero who travelled far and wide after he had sacked the famous town of Troy. Many cities did he visit, and many were the nations with whose manners and customs he was acquainted; moreover he suffered much by sea while trying to save his own life and bring his men safely home; but do what he might he
could not save his men, for they perished through their own sheer folly in eating the cattle of the Sun-god Hyperion; so the god prevented them from ever reaching home.
Tell me, too, about all these things, O daughter of Jove, from whatsoever source you may know them.
So now all who escaped death in battle or by shipwreck had got safely home except Ulysses, and he, though he was longing to return to his wife and country, was detained by the goddess Calypso, who had got him into a large cave and wanted to marry him.
But as years went by, there came a time when the gods settled that he should go back to Ithaca; even then, however, when he was among his own people, his troubles were not yet over; nevertheless all the gods had now begun to pity him except Neptune, who still persecuted him without ceasing and would not let him get home.
http://www.foi.org.uk/islands.php?island=lefkas&page=history
"Schlieman concluded that modern Ithaca was, at one time, the home of Odysseus but Dorpfeld was not satisfied with this assertion.
"Going back to The Odyssey, he felt that Lefkas was a more likely candidate and located Odysseus' palace somewhere around Nidri.
"It was around here that he begun to dig.
"Despite making some significant finds, he did not uncover any evidence to suggest that Lefkas, was or was not, the home of Odysseus.
"Some of Dorpfeld's finds are housed in the public library in Lefkas Town."
One thing to watch for is if they find something with writing on it (Linear A?). The Greek alphabet is widely thought to have originated around the time of Homer, but it has been shown that the Greeks used other alphabets in earlier times. One is called Linear B, which was only recently deciphered and shows that, while the system of writing was totally different (much more like Egyptian hieroglyphics), the language and pronunciation were about the same. There is also another one called Linear A that is thought to precede Linear B but has never been deciphered (due to lack of adequate examples). I don't know the time frame of Linear A's use, but deciphering it could provide a valuable link between the modern Greek language and the proto-Indo-European languages.
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