Posted on 11/08/2005 4:29:18 PM PST by Aussie Dasher
The US military in Iraq denies a report shown on Italian state television saying US forces used incendiary white phosphorus against civilians in a November 2004 offensive on the Iraqi town of Fallujah.
It confirmed, however, US forces had dropped MK 77 firebombs - which a documentary on Italian state-run broadcaster RAI compared to napalm - against military targets in Iraq in March and April 2003.
The documentary showed images of bodies recovered after a November 2004 offensive by US troops on the town of Fallujah, which it said proved the use of white phosphorus against men, women and children who were burned to the bone.
"I do know that white phosphorus was used," said Jeff Englehart in the RAI documentary, which identified him as a former soldier in the US 1st Infantry Division in Iraq.
"Burned bodies. Burned children and burned women," said Englehart, who RAI said had taken part in the Fallujah offensive.
"White phosphorus kills indiscriminately."
The US Marines in Baghdad described white phosphorus as a "conventional munition" used primarily for smoke screens and target marking. It denied using it against civilians.
"Suggestions that US forces targeted civilians with these weapons are simply wrong," US Marine Major Tim Keefe said.
"Had the producers of the documentary bothered to ask us for comment, we would have certainly told them that the premise of the program was erroneous."
He said US forces did not use any chemical weapons in Iraq.
A US military spokesman in Baghdad said he did not recall white phosphorus being used in Fallujah.
An incendiary device, white phosphorus was also used to light up combat areas. The use of incendiary weapons against civilians was banned by the Geneva Convention since 1980.
The United States did not sign the relevant protocol to the convention, a UN official in New York said.
The Fallujah offensive aimed to crush followers of al-Qaeda's Iraq leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, said to have linked up with local insurgents in the Sunni Arab city west of Baghdad.
Some Western newspapers reported at the time that white phosphorus had been used during the offensive.
In the documentary, Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre, RAI also said US forces used the Mark 77 firebomb.
It cited a letter it said came from British Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram, saying 30 MK 77 weapons were used on military targets in Iraq between March 31 and April 2, 2003.
"The only instance of MK 77 use during (Operation Iraqi Freedom) occurred in March/April 2003 when US Marines employed several bombs against legitimate military targets," Keefe said.
He said the chemical composition of the MK 77 firebomb was different from that of napalm.
/john
Another slam against the US, pure and simple.
Info on MK77 bombs
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk77.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mk77.htm
The perfect delivery system...A-10 Warthog
http://com3.runboard.com/bnationstatesforum.fpablicostastore.t28
Jihadis are a bunch of hotheads and they are burning down France. Maybe the MK77s are a little payback. What's wrong with taking a jihadi hothead and placing a little fire on his head?
FC
This must be a Democrat talking points memo.
Of course, a denial is the same as an admission of guilt to the MSM.
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Hello, Everyone. A national television station here in Italy aired a documentary today accusing the U.S. military of using chemical agents on Iraqi civilians in the battle for Fallujah in 2004. The chemical agents claimed to be used were "White Phosphorous" (Willie Pete) and a "Napalm" clone. The documentary, in English, Arabic and Italian, can be found here.
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/default_02112005.asp
Photographic images of victims: The scenes of melted bodies done to bare bone are shocking.
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/slideshow.asp?gallery=1&id=2
I don't know where the "Awe" can be found in the White House's Iraqi military campaign, but the "Shock" is evident.
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The poor fellow has been living with the eurotrash so long he's gone over to the dark side. Over the years he's become VERY socialist, very anti-American. At first I was going to respond to his post but later decided to just let it pass. He's obviously too far gone. When he sent the above he was living...existing...in Dinard, France.
prisoner6
Otherwise, I saw lots of dead terrorists--mostly gunshot wounds and high-explosive blasts, didn't see anything that looked like napalm burns. Personally, I don't care how they do it, as long as they keep on doing it.
I saw lots of live footage of the war where troops were using phosphorus grenades (nothing from Falljuh that I am aware of.)
Although not confirmed, it is likely that phosphorous shells were used when the Baghdad aiport was taken, mostly to hold it the first night or two when waves of Feydayeen fighters were trying to take it back.
Hey, it is a particularly effective weapon. In war, it is kill or be killed. Baghdad was taken very easily and thousands of US and Iraqi lives were saved by how easily the battle was won. Fallujah is a democratic city now rather than an Islamic terror-palace.
Seeing a few crispy terrorists doesn't bother me at all.
"The US military in Iraq denies a report shown on Italian state television saying US forces used incendiary white phosphorus against civilians in a November 2004 offensive on the Iraqi town of Fallujah. "
Are these the same Italians that gave us forged documents? Sorry piasan, but your credibility is shot.
The Ialian Commies are running the Frenchies a close second in their surrender tactics.
I just got paid and money's burning a hole in my pocket (excuse the pun) ;-)
You may want to share this with your readers. This is not a professional work, but just an informal analysis.
I had this conversation yesterday regarding this news story about WP being used as a chemical weapon.
I am a former fire support officer, who was trained to travel with infantry and armor units and be the eyes of the artillery to call for fire.
I read the article from the Italian news source, and let me state unequivocally that what it claims is physically impossible. A white phosphorous round used for illumination is a base ejecting projectile that "opens" in the air and floats down under a parachute. The projectile casing does continue down range, but fire direction officers and fire support officers along with the maneuver commanders clear this impact area as part of the calculations. The projectile casing itself could kill a person, as any bullet would, but it is not possible to use it as a chemical warfare attack.
The flare itself floats down and you would pretty much have to chase after it and position yourself under where you project it will land to even get burned. It is possible although very unlikely that this flare could hit a building and could cause a fire, but the injury wouldn’t be a chemical burn, but a burn from the building fire. I have never seen anything close to this happen.
The flares come down slowly and usually burn out first, but since they are the brightest thing in the sky, it would be easy to avoid one if it landed while burning. I have seen a few flares land on the ground while burning, but this is much different than a chemical attack.
The only way you could purposely harm anyone with this is if you direct fired at a short range. The projectile most likely wouldn't eject the flare (it has a timed fuse) and it really wouldn't matter if you fired Cheetohs at someone at that range, the concussion would kill them.
An artillery unit wouldn't use direct fire unless it was being attacked. And even then it would use their organic direct fire weapons and if necessary, another type of projectile. To use a WP for direct fire would be entirely counterproductive to the security of the battery even in self defense.
This Italian news story is nothing but a lie.
After being asked repeatedly to analyze the “Italian News Story” (gag), I analyzed the video, here are my thoughts
I analyzed the video and am pleased to announce that it is junk. There are many things I could point out, but here is what sticks out.
1. The fire raining down from the helicopter was the part that concerned me. I had to watch it repeatedly to figure it out. It is the back blast from a missile being fired the other direction. Those are harmless, tiny incendiary particles that looked like balls of fire. They are basically burning propellant. This is because it is night and it is hard to get perspective at night, with or without night vision equipment. Taken out of context, it is easy to make it look like fire raining down on the city.
2. The voice over states "contrary to the claim by the state department that WP was used in open fields, this was not true because tracer rounds were used to illuminate the enemy" Nothing could have spelled out liar any bigger than that one statement. Tracy rounds are never used to illuminate the enemy. The glow from a tracer round lasts tenths of a second and travels hundreds of miles an hour; it could not possibly be used for this function, again a claim that defies all practicality. Tracer rounds are used to see where your bullets are going so your fire can be adjusted, flat out. And quoting the State Department about a military function?
3. The pictures of dead bodies while hideous provide no analytical value. Contrast the opening from Vietnam, with the burned little girl, running from a napalmed village. That is conclusive evidence. Nothing about these dead bodies looked any different to the many dead bodies I have seen analyzing other videos (of dead bodies) that were all made that way (dead) by Saddam’s regime and then by Jihadists. There is no way to determine what killed these people by looking at pictures, except maybe by a forensics expert.
4. The soldiers, this is more complicated:
I find the taller guy, I think his name was Garret, credible. His story rang true and is tragically repeated. But this is not a war crime or a chemical attack, but bad target identification and a complete human tragedy, assuming the "civilians" were indeed non combatants, it is very hard for the soldiers to tell. Although I do question his motives that is irrelevant to this analysis since he provides no “evidence” of chemical weapons.
The other guy Jeff was a liar, to the point I would need to see his orders to believe he was in Iraq. He states, (paraphrasing) "the orders unequivocally came from the pentagon to wait until after the election".
How does he know this? Was he CENTCOM commander at the time? Did the CENTCOM commander call him up and tell him that? Even if it was true, that fact in itself is not nefarious.
The re-election of Bush would be a crushing blow to the Jihadists in Fallujah, and let me tell you, I have seen their own videos recovered from there and the place was crawling with them. It would make tactical sense to wait, if you were pretty confident that Bush would win. They call this tactical patience.
Also, the timing of the attack was heavily influenced by the Iraqi Provisional Authority. The U.S. had just helped them form and wanted to get them involved with running their country as soon as possible. That is why the first battle of Fallujah was ended, because the new Iraqi government wanted more time to talk with the Jihadists. That is until the new Iraqi government officials figured out that they were now the primary target of the Jihadists and told the U.S. effectively, go get them (the Jihadists in Fallujah) as soon as you can.
Jeff states (paraphrasing), that the U.S. was using chemical weapons because we used WP. Hogwash. The video itself showed the flares floating slowly to the ground and the ground itself gave perspective. Now I am not saying I would want WP on my skin, but I wouldn't want Drano on my skin either and I am not declaring chemical warfare on my home. Now a person could make the argument that you could take that Drano and throw it on your neighbor and that would be a chemical attack. True, but, you can not spew WP from a deployed flare because if it is burning, it is burning the WP. You wouldn’t want to put your mouth over it, of course, and you wouldn’t want to purposely hold it to your skin, but you would have to go out of the way to hurt yourself with a flare.
c. He states (paraphrasing) when they used the stuff (WP) they would come over the net and say the WP is coming or "commence bombing" or something.
Commence bombing? Who was on the net giving this sitrep, Clark Gable? That’s about the last time anybody used this term. This guy is a clown. And notice he makes claims and then says, oh, I didn't see it, but I heard about it. Come on....dude.
5. The real tip off about the credibility of this “news story” is the pictures of dead animals.
The voice over said, paraphrasing: that several animals were found dead with no visible sign of trauma.
First off, did they examine the animals? If so, they didn’t show it. Sure something is not visible, if you don’t look! Animals die everyday from natural causes, hunger, disease, or even getting hit by cars or possibly by conventional weapons.
And get this, they show people who appear burned and claim this to be a sign of a chemical weapon, then they show animals with no injuries in the context of this discussion to imply they died of a mysterious chemical weapon. Their “facts” not only fail to support each other, but they directly conflict with each other. Yet they choose to throw them at the viewer with full understanding of the emotional impact of these images.
6. A human rights group based in Fallujah? For crying out loud, that was Saddam's power base. That is were the people burned four contractors and hung them from a bridge.
By introducing these “facts” in the context of a chemical weapons discussion, yet not having any supporting evidence, I can only conclude that not only are these charges false, but this was done with the documentary creator’s full knowledge that they were baseless charges. In other words, they purposely lied, which goes to their credibility.
After I wrote this, I was informed of more “supporting evidence” linked on the www.Dailykos.com:
“"WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
-- Field Artillery Magazine, via Steven D
My analysis:
I don’t mean to speak for the author, but this is evident
""WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition."
Very true and widely known among redlegs (artillerymen). Nothing interesting here.
"We used it for screening missions at two breeches ..."
The kind of projectile they are speaking about here creates smoke. It is widely, commonly, and legally used by every army to conceal their men. Usually, if an obstacle needs to be breeched, the smoke is delivered by artillery in between the obstacle and the enemy observer. It can also be placed on the enemy to confuse and scare them. The smoke itself is uncomfortable, but not dangerous, unless you want to sit on top of the projectile and breathe it. I know because I have experienced it.
"and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE."
Notice he said psychological weapon and not chemical weapon. This is because the smoke would confuse the enemy and conceal our movements and would indeed, scare them.
"We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents"
A poor choice of phrasing because it is not technically accurate and does give the wrong impression, but this is a soldier and not a politician or a marketing strategist. (After further consideration, I think if the reference is to the projectile itself and not to the effect on flesh, it could be accurate. The HE would shake the ground and the material that creates smoke does so by burning (baking) but you would pretty much have to try to set yourself on fire by rolling around in it.)
"using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
This takes a little bit of imagination. Imagine you are in a fighting position and the enemy is dropping smoke near your position. You ask yourself "why are they dropping smoke here?" the answer "because they are coming right through here." So, you haul butt out of your defensive position and expose yourself to HE.
This statement has absolutely nothing to do with the “dual use” of smoke (WP) as a chemical weapon. It is stating that WP can have a psychological effect as well as a tactical use. That is the only “dual use” here.
-Ray Robison is a Sr. Military Operations Research Analyst with Scientific Applications International Corporation at the Aviation and Missile, Research, Development, Engineering Command in Huntsville Alabama. His background includes over ten years of military service as an officer and enlisted soldier in the Medical Branch, Field Artillery and Signal Corp including the Gulf War and Kosovo operations. Most recently he worked as a contractor for DIA with the Iraqi Survey Group.
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