Citizen MD [American Medical Association op-ed against Intelligent Design]

American Medical Association ^ | 12/02/2005 | Paul Costello

[Mamzelle]

It isn't just an evo-teacher who falls into the temptation of bullying students into signing on to a particular ideology. The whole practice is indemic in education. I couldn't attend many classes without some petty electioneering of some kind going on.

I believe it is simply unethical--but the temptation to "sell" one's POV when an audience is captive is hard to resist.

If evo-teachers had disciplined themselves to talk as scientists should speak, in language heavy with qualifiers and "mights" "likelihood" "best possible explanatin" "plausible" "meets the minimum particulars"--they wouldn't be dealing with this challenge. Instead, they're playing catchup because too many of their own gave in to bullying.

[Mamzelle]

Bah--The AMA is a paper tiger made of busybody MDs who got burnt out in clinical practice. But you can start asking your docs if they believe in evolution. Or demand that they not pray for you.

[VOA]

Where Is the Medical Community?

Well, they mostly went silent when they let folks like Deepak Chopra and
other purveyors of "traditional" or "alternative" treatments into the door.

There may be active pharmaceuticals in some of the old remedies...
but when a lot of claptrap is accepted and gets wide-spread dissemination
on "Oprah" and the like...
well, it's a bit late to get try to close the barn door on what
is not hard-core, reductionist approaches to medicine/science.

[Coyoteman]

If evo-teachers had disciplined themselves to talk as scientists should speak, in language heavy with qualifiers and "mights" "likelihood" "best possible explanatin" "plausible" "meets the minimum particulars"--they wouldn't be dealing with this challenge.

Actually, I have seen some our arguments on these threads dismissed as being inadequate just because they contain too many qualifiers.

[From many - one.]

When we pay college profs a whole lot more than we do now, it will be possible to have a large enough pool to select for highly skillful teaching as well as knowlege of subject. I had a whole lot of truly obnoxious folk teaching me in college...but so long as they knew their stuff I was ok with them. Scientists, especially, do not suffer fools gladly and often are at least mildly afflicted with Asperger's syndrome, giving them few social skills.

As for k-12 teachers, they are not the to half of any college educated group. Few have a good understanding of the science they teach (for instance having students do "experiments" that are clearly demonstrations with right answers).

Those of us living in the real world, wthout an agenda to destroy science and replace it with theocracy, accept the limitations and work to improve, not re-define and destroy.

[Matchett-PI]

M-PI: "Origin of man now proved. -- Metaphysics must flourish. - he who understands baboon would do more toward Metaphysics than Locke." - Darwin, Notebook M, August 16, 1838"

CarolinaGuitarman: "Why did Darwin mention Locke in connection with metaphysics? What does Locke have to do with metaphysics? :)"

Ahhhhh ... probably because he knew that metaphysics was one of Locke's main interests. Duh:

John Locke -- Main interests:Metaphysics, Epistemology, Political philosophy, philosophy of mind, Education

[From many - one.]

My family is littered with MDs who don't like the AMA...which is irrelevant to the point I made.

Try re-reading for content.

[Mamzelle]

re: Asperger's syndrome, giving them few social skills.)))

Indeed? I had to look it up...

Social impairments

2.2 Narrow, intense interests

--WOW, that's really on the money! That probably covers single-issue FR posters.

2.3 Speech and language peculiarities--sneering condescension?

[Mamzelle]

You like the support of an org that basically has no support, I guess is the point you wanted to make?

[ValenB4]

Scientific organizations from various fields are beginning to enter the debate against ID. ID is living on borrowed time as an academic alternative to evolutionary theory. Those trained in scientific matters will inevitable win debates involving science. The inmates cannot be allowed to run the asylum.

[weaponeer]

They would use the same criteria that you would use to prove that others beside yourself don't have minds but instead are just pre-programmed robots.

Pot, meet kettle. Nice jab, but not an answer.

[From many - one.]

Read something a little more discursive on the subject.

[From many - one.]

Nope.

Try again if you like.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Ahhhhh ... probably because he knew that metaphysics was one of Locke's main interests. Duh:

John Locke -- Main interests:Metaphysics, Epistemology, Political philosophy, philosophy of mind, Education"

But in what way is Darwin challenging the metaphysics of Locke?

BTW, for those who didn't follow the previous thread where this came up, Matchett-PI had insisted that metaphysics was about the supernatural. I correctly told her it was not, and that Darwin was challenging Locke's metaphysics. So she KNOWS I know that Locke dealt with metaphysical issues. She also knows I know that she has never answered in what way Darwin was challenging Locke's metaphysics. She brings up the Darwin quote in about every crevo thread, but cannot explain what it means.

[weaponeer]

You obviously fail to understand JudgemAll's post

uh, yeah. I don't understand how it answered the question.

[Matchett-PI]

"not an answer."

Spoken like one who either didn't comprehend the implications in "the answer", or is deliberately playing dumb.

[Matchett-PI]

"BTW, for those who didn't follow the previous thread where this came up, Matchett-PI had insisted that metaphysics was about the supernatural. I correctly told her it was not..."

Still playing stupid? Here's the quote from the other thread:

"Do you now realize that it does not necessarily have anything to do with the supernatural?"

Matchett-PI: "That depends upon which "scientist" you talk to, now doesn't it. LOL"

[b_sharp]

"Ruse also describes what he calls "metaphysical Darwinism" -- Ruse, M: 1992.Darwinism. In E F Keller and E A Lloyd eds Keywords in Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University Press. -- (as opposed to "scientific Darwinism") which is indeed a metaphysical system akin to a worldview, and which has expressed itself in numerous extra-scientific philosophies, including Spencer's, Teilhard's, and Haeckel's, or even the quasi-mystical views of Julian Huxley. .. ~ John S. Wilkins (talkorigins)

You missed the succeeding sentence in your quote.

These must be considered separate to the scientific theory, and are often in contradiction to the actual scientific models. Taken from the same quote of John Wilkins as above

Rather changes the meaning of your quote.

It's unethical to change the meaning of a quote. How many others of your quotes are similarly presented as disingenuously?

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" Still playing stupid? "

No, that's your gig, and you're doing a fine job of it!

Now, in what way is Darwin challenging Locke's metaphysics? :)

What is the relevance of the quote you keep posting from Darwin?

[Right Wing Professor]

Scientific organizations from various fields are beginning to enter the debate against ID. ID is living on borrowed time as an academic alternative to evolutionary theory. Those trained in scientific matters will inevitable win debates involving science. The inmates cannot be allowed to run the asylum.

I hope you're right. What worries me is that the alienation of the GOP from science will entail the long-term ascendancy of leftism in this country, with all that that entails.