Romans May Have Learned From Chinese Great Wall: Archaeologists

People's Daily Online/Xinhua ^ | 12-20-2005

[blam]

"The long distance and the great number of different peoples and cultures in Central Asia made any connections between the two ancient Roman and Chinese empires almost impossible."

Pure BS!

The 4,000 year old red-headed Caucasian mummies found in China were found very near Dunhuang, the location of the 'Jade Gate' in the Great Wall Of China.

Elizabeth Barber, in her book, Mummies Of Urumchi, clearly established a connection between the mummies and the Celts at Halstadt, Austria...5,000 miles away from the site of the mummies.

[Red Badger]

If you build a wall, and I build a wall, utilizing the construction materials of the same time, for the same purposes, then it isn't out of the realm of possibility that your wall and my wall would be similar is size, shape and basic design.........

[AntiGuv]

I think it's implausible that the Roman frontier defenses were in any way, shape, or form dependent on the Chinese frontier defenses. The concept of a wall is quite universal, and the idea that a big wall on the borders will keep out invadors is nothing if not obvious.

Keep in mind that Chinese archaeology is notorious for misrepresenting history for Chinese propaganda purposes.

[COBOL2Java]

Very cool. Thanks for posting!

[AntiGuv]

I think it's implausible that the Roman frontier defenses were in any way, shape, or form dependent on the Chinese frontier defenses. The concept of a wall is quite universal, and the idea that a big wall on the borders will keep out invadors is nothing if not obvious.

Keep in mind that Chinese archaeology is notorious for misrepresenting history for Chinese propaganda purposes.

[Rain-maker]

News of the future: US learns from great wall, closes Mexican border.

[AntiGuv]

Dunno why I hiccuped!

BTW, one of the biggest arguments against the notion that the Roman defenses were predicated on the Chinese defenses is that the Roman frontier defenses were never systematic in the same way that the Chinese defenses were. More importantly, we do have considerable records of the development of the Roman Limes and of the Great Wall and to my knowledge there is no record of the Romans acknowledging the alleged Chinese origin of the idea.

Finally, we have a good sense of how familiar the Romans were with China and the Chinese were with Rome and it's quite clear that they had nothing but the very dimmest conception that one another existed.

[blam]

GGG Ping.

The Mummies Of Urumchi

[AntiGuv]

This hypothesis I think is clearly a post hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacy, and by applying the same logic I see no reason whatsoever that the Great Wall of China wasn't inspired by the Long Walls of Athens.

[Natural Law]

This is nothing more than a continuation of the old communist "we invented it first" BS.

[wideawake]

The Roman border walls and the Great Wall have absolutely no relationship with one another.

This is the Chinese government making ridiculous assertions.

Sovereigns have been building territorial walls to keep out bandits since Sumer.

[wideawake]

Correct. And the Great Wall as we know it was an invention of the 14th century. Hadrian's Wall was built in the 2nd century.

the Qin wall was built in 200 BC, but it was only a few dozen miles long and not continuous.

[wildbill]

On the other hand, it may only prove that the solution to similar problems may come up with similar simple answers.

In virtually every area of the world where large beasts were available for taming and working, man developed wheels. I don't think anyone claims that wheels were the invention of one single culture.

However, in the Americas, where no large draft animals were available, the wheel was unknown except as a children's toy. It apparently wasn't considered as a solution to a common problem.

[RightWhale]

The construction of the border fence marked the end of expansion of the Roman Empire, which, since expansion of the Empire was the driving force of the Empire, marked also the end of the rise of the Empire and the beginning of its descent.

[yankeedame]

Correct. And the Great Wall as we know it was an invention of the 14th century. Hadrian's Wall was built in the 2nd century.

So it makes you wonder why, after a lull, the Chinese government is once again touting Chinese superiority; esp. using something so easily disproved as this.

Could a cloud have appeared in the enamel blue sky of the Middle Kingdom?

[English Nationalist]

"The long distance and the great number of different peoples and cultures in Central Asia made any connections between the two ancient Roman and Chinese empires almost impossible."

Nevermind the fact that they exchanged ambassadors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_embassies_to_China

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Blam. There was contact, but I find the rest of the article a little farfetched. :') OTOH, I'll post a link in a minute that will send everyone running. ;')

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

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[SunkenCiv]

Romans in China?
Archaeology | Volume 52 Number 3, May/June 1999 | Erling Hoh
Posted on 07/18/2004 8:43:09 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1173944/posts

[AntiGuv]

To say that Han China and Antonine Rome exchanged ambassadors is really stretching the description in that article, much less the meaning of the terms.

First, the entire notion of sitting embassies that this implies did not exist in that era. To say that one exchanged embassies is to say that envoys were sent from one court to another.

Second, nothing in that article suggests that a Chinese 'ambassador' got any further than Seleucid Syria, during the Hellenistic Era, before the Roman Empire even existed.

Third, that Roman merchants made is far as China - and vice versa - is hardly controversial. But to suggest that they were 'officially' dispatched by, say, Marcus Aurelius is rather pushing it.

Fourth, and related, there is no record of Marcus Aurelius sending envoys to China. At best, one would say that this was of no consequence.

Fifth, the Roman Limes were mostly in place some fifty years before the reign of Marcus Aurelius, and almost entirely completed during the reign of Hadrian.

Sixth, the uncontroversial notion that some itinerant Romans stumbled their way over to China hardly leads to the idea that said Romans toured the rudimentary Chinese frontier defenses of that era, returned to Rome, received an imperial audience, and led, say, Emperor Trajan to say: A ha! What a wonderful idea! We shall mimic it post haste!

Seventh, it is well-known that the Romans had a dim concept of some great empire on the other side of the world, as did the Chinese have a dim concept of some great empire on the other side of the world. There are plenty of cartographic and geographic records to confirm that this is all they were aware of. Over and over again there is nothing whatsoever of detail or substance written in either Rome with regard to China or in China with regard to Rome. All it ever amounts to is: there's some great empire way over there, beyond all these other great empires that are of far more immediate interest.

[Fishing-guy]

The Great Wall we see today was built during the Ming dynasty. However, there were several other Great Walls built in the previous dynasties. Remnants of them still exist, but only in bits and pieces.

If the Hungarian guy was talking about the similarities between the Lime and the Great Wall, he must be referring to the earlier versions of the Great Wall.