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To: ukwildcats
And what about the 20 or so other children that were created in the IVF procedure?  Huh? Oh, their not gifts?  Just throw aways? 
 
We need to be clear that the baby is not the problem. Babies are never problems, they are gifts. Rather, it is the procedure used to produce the baby that is the problem. Think of it: your children that were lucky enough to be born and to see the light of day were conceived in a Petri Dish! And in case you are wondering: yes, God did give them a soul in the Petri dish. God's creative love is not limited by human immorality (the immorality of the doctors and couples who create many babies, grow one or two of the good embryos and "discarding" or throwing out the others like they were trash)   God just wishes that we would do it His way. In God's plan no human being should ever be created in a laboratory. He has given us the perfect environment in which to come into being; namely, marriage. The couples' cooperation in God's creative act is called "pro-creation" as if to emphasize that the one Creator has allowed human beings to participate in so sublime an act. The institution of marriage itself was intended by Him to be the perfect matrix of life, and all technological intrusion into this sacred space for reasons other than health is a sin.
 
Why is the fertilization procedure in itself immoral? Doctors "create" multiple embryos at one time in order to increase the chances of success of implantation. Normally dozens of embryos are created and never used. These littlest human beings are then frozen or destroyed. The success rate of the in vitro process is abysmally low: only 4 percent of all the embryos created ever see the light of day as a newborn baby. Human beings, no matter how small, should never be the subject of sloppy high school science projects.

Even when a child often does result from an IVF procedure, the travesty of having to create, freeze or destroy so many of that baby's brothers and sisters, your other children, your family,  is morally reprehensible.
 
One baby created at the expense of dozens of others is a macabre tradeoff. We must stand squarely on the side of the dignity of the human person, and we can be grateful that the many God-fearing Christians and other Church denominations do not hesitate to speak out-oftentimes in the face of fierce criticism, as you are doing in this thread,  in defense of the innocent from unprincipled actions.

The immorality of the IVF procedure consists primarily in the destruction of the multiple extra embryos that are created in a laboratory along with the one or two that successfully come to birth.  The moral principle violated by this procedure is the most fundamental of all moral tenets: one can never do an evil in order that good may come of it. Here, the sacrifice of the 24 babies in order to get one or two to grow into healthy children is so wrong that it overrides the infertile couple's right to have a child.
 
The worst effect of IVF, however, is its power to strip the embryonic child of dignity under the guise of really wanting children. If we do not recognize the intrinsic dignity of that several-cell human being, then we erode the very principle whereby we fight for the dignity of every other human being, born or unborn. This recognition of human dignity is what makes us so firm in our defense of the poor, the enslaved, the handicapped, the elderly, the unborn and the embryo. All are equal in dignity simply because all were created in the image and likeness of God.

The more our culture blindly accepts killing, organ harvesting and treating other human beings as mere property, the further we slide into moral relativism, which I stated in a previous post to you, and it will be very difficult for us as a Christian, civilized nation, some day to make the argument that our own killers should respect our human dignity. IVF manipulates, destroys and dehumanizes the tiniest human beings and should be opposed on principle.
 
Stepping away from God’s law always introduces chaos into our lives. Nowhere is this truer than in the case of in vitro fertilization. The reproductive revolution has had the ability to separate genetic parenting from gestational parenting and from social parenting; and the agent who brings it all about, a biotechnician, will be still another person.
 
Marriage and its indissoluble unity are the only venue worthy of truly responsible procreation. Accordingly, any conception engineered with semen or ova donated by a third party would be opposed to the exclusivity that is demanded of a married couple. Such a procedure would be a violation of the bond of conjugal fidelity. It is also an anomaly for a donor to contribute to the conception of a child with the express intention of having nothing to do with that child’s upbringing.
 
“I formed you in the womb, I knew you and before you were born, I consecrated you” (Jer 1:5).
 
Human life is precious from the moment of conception; but, sadly enough, the biblical respect for human life is being eroded in our contemporary society. Without a deep reverence for the sacredness of human life, humanity places itself on the path of self-destruction.

When science and technology open doors that should not be opened, a Pandora’s box spews forth evils that menace humanity.  Scientists have opened a perilous door: they are manufacturing human life and using their product as an object of experimentation.

Science without the compass of ethical restraints is taking us on a path towards dehumanization in the name of progress. Modern scientific advances have so much to offer, but they must be guided by ethical principles which respect the inherent dignity of every human being. When science embarks on a Promethean quest, fueled by greed and commercialization, our own humanity is placed at risk.

In the IFV procedure,  a woman is given fertility drugs to ensure that she produces several ova which are collected to be fertilized in a petri dish creating several embryos. The healthiest ones are chosen for transfer to the woman’s womb. Many embryos are discarded or frozen. Freezing kills some more. Some embryos are later used for experimentation, which is always lethal.

Recent estimates project that there are 400,000 frozen embryos in the United States laboratories. These embryos are human lives that, given the chance to grow, would develop into a man or a woman. The fate and disposition of these embryos represents a serious moral dilemma which has contributed to a coarsening of the public’s attitude towards the sacredness of human life.

During recent debates before Congress, a couple gave compelling testimony against embryonic stem cell research. The main arguments that they presented were their two young sons who had been frozen embryos that the husband and his wife adopted. We cannot pretend that these embryos are tadpoles. They are human beings with their unique genetic code, full complement of chromosomes, and individual characteristics already in place. Every person alive today started out as an embryo.  These early-stage abortions are not morally acceptable.  Unfortunately, many people of good will have no notion of what is at stake and simply focus on the baby that results from in vitro fertilization, not adverting to the fact that the procedure involves creating many embryos, most of which will never be born because they will be frozen or discarded.

We do not have a “right to have a child.” Such a right would be “contrary to the child’s dignity and nature. The child is not an object to which one has a right, nor can he be considered an object of ownership; rather, a child is a gift, ‘the supreme gift,’ and the most gratuitous gift of marriage, and is a living testimony of the mutual giving of his parents. For this reason the child has the right to be the fruit of the specific act of conjugal love of his parents; and the child also has the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception”

For us, marriage and motherhood and fatherhood is a vocation, and children are a gift. However, even when procreation is not possible, married life does not for that reason lose its value. 

And, in many cases, after a couple adopts a child, many wives find themselves pregnant after a period of time. 


109 posted on 12/29/2005 1:11:24 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: Coleus

Well, then.........in certain religions it is a "sin" to use a Doctor and all his abilities to treat a sick child, done under the pretext of "God's will". Are they wrong to let a child die? Yes, I am well aware my babies were conceived in a petri dish.......with my sperm and my wifes eggs, you think I am an idiot? What about the wonderful drugs that are created in a laboratory? Is that wrong? In case you have missed me pointing this out, my wife and I pro-created successfully 5 times.........leading to miscarriages every one. Was that God's will? Or, was it a medical condition? Either way, they were aborted.

There were 4 embryos placed into my wife.....two which never developed heartbeats and my sons. There were NO EMBRYOS THROWN AWAY OR FROZEN. I am not saying that is the case with everyone, but with us it was.

Obviously you are set in your thinking, as am I. When I meet my maker it will be with the knowledge that I raised my children in His image, children which you degrade with all your writings, even though you call them gifts.

I did enjoy the "many wives find themselves pregnant" line.


110 posted on 12/29/2005 1:40:57 PM PST by ukwildcats
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To: Coleus; little jeremiah
I did not know that about IVF. There are so many things about these procedures that seems to be left out of the MSM.

But they are real quick to reveal our intelligence source's to al quaida.

Wolf
114 posted on 12/29/2005 3:33:34 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: Coleus
Why is the fertilization procedure in itself immoral? Doctors "create" multiple embryos at one time in order to increase the chances of success of implantation. Normally dozens of embryos are created and never used. These littlest human beings are then frozen or destroyed. The success rate of the in vitro process is abysmally low: only 4 percent of all the embryos created ever see the light of day as a newborn baby. Human beings, no matter how small, should never be the subject of sloppy high school science projects.

I think you need to seperate the morality of the IVF process from the morality of how it is most commonly practiced. I will agree that how it is most commonly practiced, it is a moral travesty, but that doesn't mean that everyone treats their embryos so recklessly. There are people who follow a strict policy of implanting every embryo they've created or donating those embryos to others. It's true that most people don't do this but that's a problem with how IVF is practiced, not a problem with the procedure itself.

What about all the embryos that don't make it? In the natural process, large numbers of embryos don't make it, either. And when you consider that people who turn to IVF are more likely to have problems that cause the natural process to fail, it's not surprising that the IVF process also often fails. While the IVF process adds certain dangers to the fertilized egg, it also can remove some of them. In the big scheme of things, whether a particular fertilized egg is suitable for maturity is in God's hands whether the fertilization was natural or via IVF. Based on my research, the 4 percent figure you cite is because of how IVF is commonly practiced (with parents discarding the extras, creating way more embryos than they'd ever use, genetic testing that damages the embryo, the ICSI process that forces an egg and sperm together that would never naturally join, etc) and not a product of the IVF process, itself, and an infertile couple who "keeps trying" to have a child the natural way may be creating plenty of non-viable embryos that never mature, too.

It's possible to ethically practice IVF by not practicing ICSI, not creating too many embryos, not subjecting them to tests that damage them or condemn them before they've been given a chance, and donating any extra embryos to other couples wanting children. Basically, it's possible to practice IVF ethically by treating the fertilized eggs as children from the start rather that biological samples. That can be done and I know of couples who practice it that way.

Is IVF more "risky" for a fertilized egg than natural fertilization? I'm not sure it is but it might be. Does that make it immoral? I don't think so. It's risky to put your child into a car and go for a drive. It's risky to bring your child to a hospital or have them immunized. Does that mean that parents who drive their children around in a car are immoral for taking that extra risk (usually based on convenience or some other unnecessary desire of the parent to travel somewhere) with their child? Are parents who bring their children to hospitals or have the immunized immoral? Risk is something that each person has to judge for themselves and it's often a matter of trade-offs rather than an easy choice.

Even when a child often does result from an IVF procedure, the travesty of having to create, freeze or destroy so many of that baby's brothers and sisters, your other children, your family, is morally reprehensible.

If you look into the natural fertilization process, you'll find that even naturally, not only do couples commonly suffer miscarriages (most of my friends have had them while trying to have children) but the best current guess is that maybe a third of the eggs that fertilize actually implant and produce a pregnancy. Being pro-life, I don't think that makes them any less human beings, any more than the death rate of children in Africa makes them less human beings. But don't pretend that the natural fertilization process isn't full of children who are created and destroyed before birth for a host of entirely natural reasons beyond the parents' control. I'm right there with you condemning the premeditated destruction of viable fertilized eggs and embryos, particularly for the entirely selfish reason than the parents just don't want to use them, and I'm also sympathetic to your concerns that widespread IVF devalues fertilized eggs and embryos, but that's a problem with how IVF is practices, not a problem with IVF as a procedure. And as much as the IVF process in particular and fertility treatment in general might erode the way people look at fertilized eggs, I think that they also create a countering enhancement effect in that every couple undergoing IVF is keenly aware of their child's existance going back to fertilization (they give parents pictures of the fertilized eggs and embryos), keenly aware of the entire pregnancy continuum as they see pictures and ultrasounds from before most women realize they are pregnant, and many parents feel the hope and dreams of having that child from the moment of fertilization. Yeah, bad things are done in the name of IVF but I think it has some benefits to the pro-life movement, as well.

137 posted on 12/30/2005 11:26:00 AM PST by Question_Assumptions
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