Spanish officer held for Catalan comment (Catalonia is demanding to be recognized as a nation.)

chron.com ^ | 1/7/2006 | CIARAN GILES

[neverdem]

Associated Press

MADRID, Spain (AP) — Spain's Defense Ministry ordered the house arrest Saturday of a senior officer who warned that the armed forces might have to intervene if the northeastern region of Catalonia went too far in its efforts toward greater self-government.

The comments by army Lt. Gen. Jose Mena Aguado to fellow officers in a speech Friday in Seville triggered memories of military uprisings and coups in Spain's past.

In a statement Defense Minister Jose Bono, who met with Mena on Saturday, ordered the officer held under house arrest for eight days while his dismissal is processed.

In the speech, Mena warned of the "serious consequences for the armed forces, as an institution, and its members if the Catalan charter is approved in its current terms."

He cited a clause in the Spanish constitution that calls on the armed forces to intervene if needed to guarantee the unity, independence and sovereignty of Spain, although he did not specify how he thought the armed forces should intervene.

Gen. Francisco Franco rebelled against Spain's democratic republican government in 1936, triggering the Spanish Civil War. He then ruled Spain between 1939 and his death in 1975. In 1978, three years after the return to democracy, paramilitary Civil Guards attempted a coup, which was quashed after King Juan Carlos ordered troops back to their barracks.

Mena's remarks were a direct reference to negotiations for a new charter for the region of Catalonia which have dominated political debate in Spain. The Catalan regional government, based in Barcelona, is demanding far-reaching political and fiscal powers and also to be recognized as a nation.

The Basque region is also seeking to revamp its charter.

Most parties dismissed the general as being out of touch with reality.

"Spain's military establishment still hasn't undergone the democratic recycling that is imperative," said Josu Erkoreka, spokesman for the Basque National Party in parliament.

The leading daily El Pais pointed out that Mena seemed unaware that the constitution stated that it was the government and parliament — not the armed forces — who should determine if the country is in danger.

Only the right wing Popular Party, the most vociferous opponent of the Catalan charter, pulled back from condemning the officer, saying his comments were the logical result of the uncertainty triggered by the charter debate.

Mena, 63, is due to retire in March after more than 40 years' service.

[marron]

ping

[denydenydeny]

It wouldn't surprise me if, in a few years, the Muslims try this in southern Spain.

[Do not dub me shapka broham]

ping

[facedown]

And the beat goes on...

[livius]

Thanks! I'm in Spain right now.

This was a stupid thing for this general to say, but it reflects the feelings of many people here. The Catalans initially pulled this "nation" stuff simply to get more money under the Spanish tax distribution system, which is very centralized and which the Catalans always feel has not given them back as much as they put in. However, with the retirement of Jordi Pujols - who knew exactly how far to go with this - a group of radicals has gained power and it now seems as if the breakup of Spain (which was in many ways the first united modern nation) is a real possibility.

This has been leading to other questions: for example, there are territories in Aragon that are "claimed" by both Basque and Catalan nationalists. Does this mean Spain will become Balkans II, fragmenting into mini-states fighting border wars?

And then there is the Islam factor. Europe in general has relied on the US to defend it, and individual regions rely on their country's connections with the US and NATO to defend them. Neither Pais Vasco nor Catalunya is prepared to build a defense system, and they are both blithely ignoring the implications of this. Of course, ETA and Islamic radicalism have been hand in glove for many years now, and Catalunya is busy "rediscovering its Islamic roots," despite the fact that it doesn't have any. Catalunya is probably the most secularized and hence most PC part of Spain, for which reason it will probably go gleefully into the Islamic night.

And to make it worse, all of this is being encouraged by the Zapatero government, which in addition to building mosques, recently distinguished itself by being number three on Evo Morales' list of state visits after his election, the first two being Chavez and Castro. Morales made his usual raving anti-American "George Bush is the only terrorist" statements here in Madrid, and Zapatero loaded him up with money and patted him on the back and sent him back to his cocaleros with a big kiss.

Spain is in many ways an unimportant country, but a lot of bizarre things are happening in it right now that could eventually have an impact on the rest of Europe and Western security in general.

[kipita]

Thanks for the ping. Hey, down here in Andalucia, we're going to form our independent nation and take ALL of our WEALTH with us. :-)

[kipita]

It wouldn't surprise me if, in a few years, the Muslims try this in southern Spain

Southern Spain is to Muslim/Russian "moneybags" as a Maytag is to pig farmers. It's well protected and will be defended.

[Do not dub me shapka broham]

ping

[marron]

Good post. I'm interested in hearing your comments on the current state of affairs there, as regards Zapatero, conservatism as a political force, attitudes toward Americans in general; does anyone at all get what we are trying to do, and so on...

In other words, are you completely a fish out of water, or are there people there with whom you are in tune philosophically...

Does anyone there realize what a giant Aznar was in the eyes of, at least, some of us?

I find, in traveling that there are always people with whom I am in tune philosophically but they often don't realize that there is a culture war within the US, and that they are in tune with one half of it... As ignorant as we are often accused of being about the world outside the US (with some truth) I find that people's assumptions about who we are and what we believe are often woefully incomplete, since almost everything they know about us is filtered through a Hollywood lens and their own leftist press (which may be quoting our leftist press)...

I have occasionally told people that if the only thing you know about us is what you read in the paper and see at the movies, you don't know us at all... Obviously, the inverse is true as well...

One of the things that makes Americans who and what they are is the conviction that God moves, and that America was born to play a role in God's architecture. At one level that seems arrogant to outsiders, but I've often wondered why it is that they do not have that same sense about themselves, as a nation. But much of what makes nation-states weak is the lack of conviction that they are anything more than an accidental collection of strangers, all carrying passports of the same color... I always thought that Spain, of all countries, had a sense of history about itself. Has that died? Is there anyone there with that sense of national purpose to which I refer?

Certainly you don't see it in Latin America, but I always thought that Spain would be different. I spent a little time there, just enough to love it but not enough to know it. I invite your response when you have time, maybe when you return.

[kipita]

I always thought that Spain, of all countries, had a sense of history about itself. Has that died? Is there anyone there with that sense of national purpose to which I refer?

I'd say Spain had its strongest national identity via the Catholic church some hundreds of years ago (Catholic Kings). And even in its history, Spain didn't send Columbus to discover America, it was the Catholic Kingdom of Castilla and Leon. The only other time Spain had national identity similar to America was during Franco's civil war. And even then, Franco needed the institution that was the Catholic church just as much as the Catholic church needed Franco. One has since died (1975) and the other has been dying for centuries and is close to death. I don't think you'll find an American equivalent (given its size and diversity) to national identity anywhere in the world.

[Spanishguy]

No worry, forget about politicians and look at the figures... 80% of catalans declare that they feel spanish (myself included, just check my nickname). The 20% that claims to be only catalans could be divided in:
- people who have never left their little villages.
- people who just follow the stream of their surroundings.
- people who don't have anything else to do in their spare time (I swear it!!!)
- Whiners who like to feel all the time that someone else is to be blamed for everything.
- People who think that the relevance of their closer social group will justify their poor lifes.
- Nerds, in a very wide range.

Curiously, just 20% of the catalans agree that the charter is OK as it is. Guess who's who?

On the other hand catalans probably have one of the more practical and less idealistic personalities among the spanish, have you realised about the several and obvious disadvantages of independence???

And if someone stills insists saying that the catalan blood is not spanish blood we could still say, OK, let's buy that but... 80% of us DO have blood from the rest of Spain.

I really doubt that a poll for independence would get more than a 8 or 10% of YES. I'd bet my right hand, believe me, is soooo clear from inside.

Probably you'll wonder, how have we come to this then? well, my own theory is that for 90% of the catalan people in fact this is a Madrid vs Barcelona debate, and the real reason is money of course... if you consider that around 80% of catalans live in the area of influence of Barcelona you'll see why for a lot of people the confussion Barcelona/Catalunya is quite easy, even for the people in the rest of Spain.

For the poor fools of ERC the statement of Catalunya as a nation is a chance to apply for independence in the future. For CiU and PSC is just like saying, OK Madrid has the government so we are aaaah a nation!! and we deserve some attention and respect (respect is also included in the deal I think).

Spain is one of the few countries in which there is a second city at the very same level of the capital and at the same time all the rest are faaar far away. This brings some stress that we have not been able to manage, at this moment Madrid holds the key and no one pushes with us. Italy is the other one with Milan/Rome(and they have a similar problem WITHOUT the historical background of Catalunya) and I cannot think about anyone else.

I hope some cities like Valencia, Sevilla or Bilbao will shorten the gap (they're in the way) and in this country we start to realise that you shouldn't need to go to Madrid to do everything.

Livius, I owe you an answer about this matter since weeks ago, sorry, I've been very very busy and I didn't want to give a complimentary answer made in 2 minutes. I'll do it one of this days, meanwhile I guess that in this post you've been able to see what do I think.

By the way, what do you mean with "rediscovering the islamic roots"?? muslims never got really north of the Ebro river.
What we have are roman things, starting with the roots of the cities' names (Barcino, Tarraco...)

[kipita]

No worry, forget about politicians and look at the figures... 80% of catalans declare that they feel spanish (myself included, just check my nickname). The 20% that claims to be only catalans could be divided in:

The same can be said for Pais Vasco.

By the way, what do you mean with "rediscovering the islamic roots"?? muslims never got really north of the Ebro river. What we have are roman things, starting with the roots of the cities' names (Barcino, Tarraco...)

Very good analysis! There's even a few Roman ruins in the South. Muslim extremist have been losing ground in North Africa and in southern Spain there is more fear from ETA than any other group.

[Spanishguy]

"The same can be said for Pais Vasco"

I guess but I don't know that place enough to have a really strong opinion. There's always been a difference that in my opinion is fundamental, catalans have never started something like ETA and when some guys tried to do it in the 70's they never got any social support... I don't know if that's because, as I said, in Catalunya nacionalism is mainly used to hide other issues (you don't kill a guy because they have a bigger airport!!!) or because of cultural differences.

How do you see that from Andalucia?

[livius]

I agree that it doesn't express the feeling of the majority of Catalans - I was in BCN about three weeks ago, and even my leftist friends there are concerned about the out of control rhetoric that has taken over. One of them told me that some of the leftist intellectuals there were trying to form a new socialist political party that would not be tied to separatism. I hope they succeed, because the combination of Zapatero's stupidity and some people's ambition is getting downright dangerous.

I also agree that Spain is excessively centralized; everybody in the country waits for the central government to do things, rather than seeing what their region can do (other than beg for funds from the political party in charge of the central government at that moment). It's always hard to have two centers of wealth and productivity in a relatively small country, but particularly so when the structure is set up to run entirely out of one of them.

I know that Islam has no "roots" in Barcelona, but there were Muslims in various other parts of the areas where Catalan was or is spoken (Valencia, Baleares), as well as in Aragon, which Catalan nationalists also seem to feel is theirs, as well. I have read stupid statements by converts to Islam (university students from Barcelona!) to the effect that they were going back to their "roots."

Frankly, what I'd be really alarmed about if I lived in Catalunya is not other Spaniards, but the large number of Islamic immigrants in some of the towns outside BCN. I went to Manresa for something while I was there and I wondered if maybe I had somehow gotten on the wrong train and ended up in Morocco. Nothing but halal butchers, young men speaking something other than Spanish or Catalan, and the occasional heavily veiled woman wheeling a baby carriage. And where other towns had a bank sponsoring a Nativity display or something similar, the local bank in this town was sponsoring a show on the glories of Al Andalus!

[kipita]

How do you see that from Andalucia?

Well, I should say that I teach business English to Spanish executives in the North so my comments about the North are based on their input and analysis. Andalucia is still a relatively male dominated, semi-feudalistic, semi-politically indifferent family dominated culture where everyone seems to be your best friend in 10 minutes (until the next day). There are no strong political movements to speak of except the predictable mix and assimilation of Moorish and European people and culture.

In a relative sense, it has the New Orleans "fiesta" mentality and the California "laid back" demeanor and weather. Thus, some folks think it has the potential to be the "California of Europe".