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CA: "It's Official!" CPUC Approves $3.2 Billion Solar Program
Environment California

Posted on 01/12/2006 7:19:11 PM PST by calcowgirl

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To: HolgerDansk

Be VERY circumspect about manufacturer claims like that, among other things they are based on an unrealistic and unobtainable high illuminance (1,000 W/m2), while with the solar cells are artificially kept at 25ºC (by water cooling). The 12% value indicated in my table is a real-world value. However, if you have a particular model in mind and if you'd like, just send me the part number and I'll review it for you and let's see what the manufacturer says in the "fine print". (In engineering, we call hiding the bad news, "specsmanship"!)

I think you need to go back to the table and pay particular attention to the caution in note 11 at the bottom.

Keep in mind that ultimately it is YOU who is paying that subsidy to yourself via the utility fund established by your friendly legislature!!! (TANSTAAFL)

My prediction is that by the time you're through paying back the cost of the solar panels, installation costs, panel supports, wiring, inverter, building permits and especially the time value of the capital invested, that your solar cells will be dead from old age.

However, I don't want to rain on your parade (or your solar cells), so if you're hot to trot, go for it. Since I'll being paying part of your subsidy, I expect a cold brew from you, if we ever meet.

61 posted on 01/13/2006 2:12:11 AM PST by Boot Hill ("...and Joshua went unto him and said: art thou for us, or for our adversaries?")
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To: Drago

That's good thinking and as I prefaced the table I posted, "where your connection to the electric utility grid is either non-existent or problematic, solar cells can offer a practical solution". However, the system you're describing would need battery back up to keep you going at night during the outages and that gets very expensive (3x, easy).

If that new place will be in the mountains ("frequent power outages"), keep in mind about roof orientation, trees and hills and you should be alright.

Almost every one up in the mountains where I live have back up generators of about 3-5 kW capacity. They cost about a buck a watt and many now come with such good silencing systems, that you can barely tell when they're running. Check out Honda's product line, for instance. Anyway, give it a thought, it sure would be cheaper than going solar, especially with batteries. (And besides, you can easily take the generator with you when you move.)

62 posted on 01/13/2006 2:30:02 AM PST by Boot Hill ("...and Joshua went unto him and said: art thou for us, or for our adversaries?")
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To: Boot Hill

thanks - simply brilliant


63 posted on 01/13/2006 2:32:29 AM PST by dennisw ("What one man can do another can do" - The Edge)
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To: Boot Hill

I met a couple in 1986 who were off the grid. It was rural Kentucky and prohibitive to pay for an electric hook up. I'm sure off-grid schemes and technology have greatly advanced in 20 years

They had the house wired with 12 volt marine fixtures and bulbs. Had a 12 volt TV. Had a propane refrigerator. Had a generator to run power tools now and then. Had solar-electric cells but I forget how big


64 posted on 01/13/2006 2:39:58 AM PST by dennisw ("What one man can do another can do" - The Edge)
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To: dennisw

Thanks Dennis.


65 posted on 01/13/2006 2:40:53 AM PST by Boot Hill ("...and Joshua went unto him and said: art thou for us, or for our adversaries?")
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To: dennisw
dennisw:   "It was rural Kentucky and prohibitive to pay for an electric hook up"

Sounds like an ideal situation for solar.

66 posted on 01/13/2006 2:56:03 AM PST by Boot Hill ("...and Joshua went unto him and said: art thou for us, or for our adversaries?")
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To: Boot Hill

More energy is consumed in creating a single solar panel than it will ever produce in its useful lifetime.

Only the truly retarded could believe this is an energy solution.

It's an energy NET LOSS.


67 posted on 01/13/2006 5:57:38 AM PST by Dog Gone
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To: dalereed
How much does the removal and reinstall of solar panels add to the cost of a reproof?
68 posted on 01/13/2006 6:30:57 AM PST by tubebender (Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else...)
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To: tubebender

I would guess $200 would be absolute max.


69 posted on 01/13/2006 7:08:17 AM PST by dalereed
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To: dalereed

$200 sounds low?


70 posted on 01/13/2006 7:16:17 AM PST by tubebender (Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else...)
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To: tubebender

Everything is already fabricated, all they have to do is unbolt it store it, and bolt it back in place. Shouldn't take 2 men more than a couple of hours each time at the most.


71 posted on 01/13/2006 7:20:42 AM PST by dalereed
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To: dalereed; Carry_Okie; FOG724; calcowgirl; ElkGroveDan
I don't think too much of altruism, either! In fact I really like Ayn Rand's "The Virtue Of Selfishness!" I like a lot of her thinking, but just can't buy her anti-religiousness, although I realize it is all mysticism.

I'm afraid our Governor has gotten himself all wrapped up in the religious mysticism of GovernMental EnvironMentalism and is acting far more like a member of the Green Party that either a Republican, or Damnocrat!!!

Things are getting worse than they were under Gray Davis on an excellerated basis! It's compounding on a parabolic curve one can actually graph!!!

72 posted on 01/13/2006 9:05:21 AM PST by SierraWasp (EnvironMentalism... America's establishment of it's unconstitutional State Religion!!!)
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To: Boot Hill
Almost every one up in the mountains where I live have back up generators of about 3-5 kW capacity.

A few years ago, my homeowners association in Montana looked into a backup solution for our well (200 ft with a 3HP pump). Our outages are typically less than a day but longer than two hours, we're the eastern edge of BPA. We spent about three months studying the economics, and the battery/inverter solution won out. Inverters keep getting dramatically better every third year or so (not to mention cheaper), and AGM batteries last about 7-8 years. Given the surge currents involved in starting the pump [85A @ 208V], we were able to go with a 4 kVA inverter instead of a 10kW generator for about a 25% savings. Best part is that the inverter will also kick in a bit if there's a brownout, extending the life of the motor.

We haven't touched it since we installed it three years ago. It just works. No maintenance, no fueling, nobody has to go to the pump shed when it's -30F.

73 posted on 01/13/2006 9:06:54 AM PST by HolgerDansk ("Oh Bother", said Pooh, as he worked the bolt.)
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To: Dog Gone
More energy is consumed in creating a single solar panel than it will ever produce in its useful lifetime.

Perhaps you're thinking of alcohol, because I've never seen a study that claimed a negative energy balance for photovoltaics.

74 posted on 01/13/2006 9:12:41 AM PST by HolgerDansk ("Oh Bother", said Pooh, as he worked the bolt.)
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To: dennisw; Boot Hill; RadioAstronomer; dalereed
"thanks - simply brilliant"

Isn't he great? Sure sheds a lot more light than heat on these scenarios, doesn't he?

75 posted on 01/13/2006 9:17:11 AM PST by SierraWasp (EnvironMentalism... America's establishment of it's unconstitutional State Religion!!!)
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To: Dog Gone
It's simply the most expensive possible way to make electricity... PERIOD!!!

Glad to see you here! Are you now beginning to see why we're gittin pist at this lame excuse for a Gray Davis replacement?

76 posted on 01/13/2006 9:21:32 AM PST by SierraWasp (EnvironMentalism... America's establishment of it's unconstitutional State Religion!!!)
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To: Dog Gone

However, for a rural installation the owner installs himself, it can be a lifesaver. For instance, I designed a system where solar panels/batteries would back up both water (well pump) and enough auxiliary power to run my father oxygen machine should the main power fail. Without that he would not last long. We also have a 5KW generator backup in case of extended periods where the panels would not put out enough power.


77 posted on 01/13/2006 9:26:29 AM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer
I have a well pump that is powered entirely by solar power. It's great. Even if the power grid was entirely knocked out, I have a water supply.

Solar has great niche applications.

78 posted on 01/13/2006 10:27:20 AM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone

Good stuff my friend. I am really glad to read this. :-)


79 posted on 01/13/2006 10:30:28 AM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: FOG724
"SMUD has been spending huge amounts of money in their shade tree program. For those who don't know, they will come out to your house tell you if and where you need trees, then provide you with free trees to plant."

Please tell me this is pure humor.

I'm begging you.

80 posted on 01/13/2006 11:13:48 AM PST by Czar (StillFedUptotheTeeth@Washington)
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