Steven Spielberg's Munich Asks: "Is The 'War on Terrorism' a Real War?"

Rational Review ^ | January 16, 2006 | J. Neil Schulman

[kenavi]

Churchill was a drunk, a buffoon and a criminal. And thanks to that maggot and his criminal co conspirator FDR, a couple MILLION American servicemen needlessly died and most of Europe enslaved by Communism.

Are you saying that we joined the wrong side in the War? Or should have just stayed out and worked it out with "Gentleman Hitler"? Otherwise, how can you say that U.S. casualties were "needless"? And speaking of the "Truth", there were 300,000 to 418,500 U.S. casualties in the War. Maybe you are including the Civil War dead in that number as their fault too? (I suppose you think that was another war that the wrong side won.)

[SJackson]

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[Stultis]

It is a lot easier to look back at history and say we had to win the war, but imagine if you were the man flying the Enola Gay. He was haunted for the rest of his life by guilt.

General Paul Tibbets? NO HE WASN'T! Where did you get this bizarre notion?

[Stultis]

BTW, just found an interview with Tibbets from Summer 2002. No guilt here. In fact it's clear he would be proud to drop another if asked and if needed! (PT = Paul Tibbets, ST = Studs Terkel. Only posting that latter portion.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,769634,00.html

[...] Then I was taken by this man and put in the chair that was right beside the president's desk, beside his left hand. Anyway, we got a cup of coffee and we got most of it consumed when Truman walked in and everybody stood on their feet. He said, "Sit down, please," and he had a big smile on his face and he said, "General Spaatz, I want to congratulate you on being first chief of the air force," because it was no longer the air corps. Spaatz said, "Thank you, sir, it's a great honour and I appreciate it." And he said to Doolittle: "That was a magnificent thing you pulled flying off of that carrier," and Doolittle said, "All in a day's work, Mr President." And he looked at Dave Shillen and said, "Colonel Shillen, I want to congratulate you on having the foresight to recognise the potential in aerial refuelling. We're gonna need it bad some day." And he said thank you very much.

Then he looked at me for 10 seconds and he didn't say anything. And when he finally did, he said, "What do you think?" I said, "Mr President, I think I did what I was told." He slapped his hand on the table and said: "You're damn right you did, and I'm the guy who sent you. If anybody gives you a hard time about it, refer them to me."

ST: Anybody ever give you a hard time?

PT: Nobody gave me a hard time.

ST: Do you ever have any second thoughts about the bomb?

PT: Second thoughts? No. Studs, look. Number one, I got into the air corps to defend the United States to the best of my ability. That's what I believe in and that's what I work for. Number two, I'd had so much experience with airplanes... I'd had jobs where there was no particular direction about how you do it and then of course I put this thing together with my own thoughts on how it should be because when I got the directive I was to be self-supporting at all times.

On the way to the target I was thinking: I can't think of any mistakes I've made. Maybe I did make a mistake: maybe I was too damned assured. At 29 years of age I was so shot in the ass with confidence I didn't think there was anything I couldn't do. Of course, that applied to airplanes and people. So, no, I had no problem with it. I knew we did the right thing because when I knew we'd be doing that I thought, yes, we're going to kill a lot of people, but by God we're going to save a lot of lives. We won't have to invade [Japan].

ST: Why did they drop the second one, the Bockscar [bomb] on Nagasaki?

PT: Unknown to anybody else - I knew it, but nobody else knew - there was a third one. See, the first bomb went off and they didn't hear anything out of the Japanese for two or three days. The second bomb was dropped and again they were silent for another couple of days. Then I got a phone call from General Curtis LeMay [chief of staff of the strategic air forces in the Pacific]. He said, "You got another one of those damn things?" I said, "Yessir." He said, "Where is it?" I said, "Over in Utah." He said, "Get it out here. You and your crew are going to fly it." I said, "Yessir." I sent word back and the crew loaded it on an airplane and we headed back to bring it right on out to Trinian and when they got it to California debarkation point, the war was over.

ST: What did General LeMay have in mind with the third one?

PT: Nobody knows.

ST: One big question. Since September 11, what are your thoughts? People talk about nukes, the hydrogen bomb.

PT: Let's put it this way. I don't know any more about these terrorists than you do, I know nothing. When they bombed the Trade Centre I couldn't believe what was going on. We've fought many enemies at different times. But we knew who they were and where they were. These people, we don't know who they are or where they are. That's the point that bothers me. Because they're gonna strike again, I'll put money on it. And it's going to be damned dramatic. But they're gonna do it in their own sweet time. We've got to get into a position where we can kill the bastards. None of this business of taking them to court, the hell with that. I wouldn't waste five seconds on them.

ST: What about the bomb? Einstein said the world has changed since the atom was split.

PT: That's right. It has changed.

ST: And Oppenheimer knew that.

PT: Oppenheimer is dead. He did something for the world and people don't understand. And it is a free world.

ST: One last thing, when you hear people say, "Let's nuke 'em," "Let's nuke these people," what do you think?

PT: Oh, I wouldn't hesitate if I had the choice. I'd wipe 'em out. You're gonna kill innocent people at the same time, but we've never fought a damn war anywhere in the world where they didn't kill innocent people. If the newspapers would just cut out the shit: "You've killed so many civilians." That's their tough luck for being there.

ST: By the way, I forgot to say Enola Gay was originally called number 82. How did your mother feel about having her name on it?

PT: Well, I can only tell you what my dad said. My mother never changed her expression very much about anything, whether it was serious or light, but when she'd get tickled, her stomach would jiggle. My dad said to me that when the telephone in Miami rang, my mother was quiet first. Then, when it was announced on the radio, he said: "You should have seen the old gal's belly jiggle on that one."

[okie01]

The US was not all that involved in the firebombing of Dresden. As far is I know it was an entirely British mission.

Dresden and Hamburg were both RAF targets...primarily. But the U.S. 8th Air Force participated, handling the daytime duties. The B-17s and B-24s didn't carry the bomb load that the Lancasters and Halifaxes carried. Nor did the 8th AF employ the RAF's incendiary + blockbuster mix.

Consequently, while the US wasn't the primary contributor to the fire storms of Dresden and Hamburg, we participated.

[rollo tomasi]

Munich--- an exercise in "humanizing demons rather than demonizing humans".

This quote (Paraphrased) either came from an article on another thread or from one of the posters response. I forgot but it was a great quote.

[Stultis]

Looks like the full interview with Tibbets was also posted here on Free Republic. Well worth the read:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1332957/posts

"These [terrorists ...] they're gonna strike again, I'll put money on it. And it's going to be damned dramatic. But they're gonna do it in their own sweet time. We've got to get into a position where we can kill the bastards. None of this business of taking them to court, the hell with that. I wouldn't waste five seconds on them."

"Oh, I wouldn't hesitate [to 'nuke' the terrorists] if I had the choice. I'd wipe 'em out. You're gonna kill innocent people at the same time, but we've never fought a damn war anywhere in the world where they didn't kill innocent people. If the newspapers would just cut out the shit: 'You've killed so many civilians.' That's their tough luck for being there."

[Johnnyboy2000]

I concede you are correct about Tibbets. What I was recalling was actually interviews I have seen of the Enola Gay's navigator. I cannot recall his name. He also does not regret the attack, but my impression is that he had some mixed emotions about the huge loss of civilian life. Perhaps haunted was too strong of a word to describe this. I am also aware that most of the crew of the Enola Gay and of the plane that attacked Nagasaki believe that what they did was necessary.

I regret using this example while making my point that really had nothing to do with these specific events other than that I mentioned them as examples. I want to make it clear that I am not judging these men or the bombings. I realize what the Japanese Empire was like and what they did. I was just trying to make the point that many people have trouble dealing with what transpires in war. Ostensibly Tibbets and his crew did not.

[Stultis]

many people have trouble dealing with what transpires in war

Agreed. (Although I believe it's rather less common with pilots.)

[Kozak]

Wrong. Dresden was bombed by Bomber Command at night and the 8th Air force by day.

As to Spielbergs movie, anything that purports a moral equivalence to terrorists murdering innocent athletes and vengeance against those terrorists is pure dreck.

[Johnnyboy2000]

I was about to say that but didn't want to insult any brave pilots who served our country. But I was going to say perhaps it is easier for humans to cope with killing 60,000 civilians from high above, than it is for a human to kill another soldier while they are looking into his eyes and hearing him scream and die. I hope no one is offended by this. I mean it simply as thought about the human psyche and how we deal with things.

[mississippi red-neck]

Churchill was a drunk, a buffoon and a criminal. And thanks to that maggot and his criminal co conspirator FDR, a couple MILLION American servicemen needlessly died and most of Europe enslaved by Communism.

If it wasn't for these great leaders instead of growing up to be a free and complete utter idiot for all the world to see, you would be speaking German or Japanese, or maybe be something worse such as a lamp shade or the contents of a easy bake oven.

[Johnnyboy2000]

I said "firebombed", and the firebombs are what cause a majority of the casaulties. Post 25 seems to back of my beliefs, but I honestly don't know for sure. I am trying to recall what I learned about the incident in my military history classes.

[rmlew]

Actually, Spoielberg changed the postions and key statments of PM Golda Meir.
He falsified history to support an ideological position with his bs about civilizations being forced to give up their principles.

[Johnnyboy2000]

I cannot comment because I have not seen the film yet. When does this take place in the film? Please elaborate on what exactly he changes so I can see for myself.

[chasio649]

Thank you for posting that...... There are some nuts on FR.

[J. Neil Schulman]

In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled Steven Spielberg's Munich Asks: "Is The 'War on Terrorism' a Real War?", rollo tomasi wrote:
"Munich--- an exercise in 'humanizing demons rather than demonizing humans.'

"This quote (Paraphrased) either came from an article on another thread or from one of the posters response. I forgot but it was a great quote."

It's very clever. But the point is that Jihadi terrorists are not demons. They are our own species, fully empowered to choose between doing good acts or evil acts. It does one no good not to understand the nature and mindset of one's enemy.

JNS

[J. Neil Schulman]

In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled Steven Spielberg's Munich Asks: "Is The 'War on Terrorism' a Real War?", Kozak wrote:

"As to Spielbergs movie, anything that purports a moral equivalence to terrorists murdering innocent athletes and vengeance against those terrorists is pure dreck."

Munich does not purport a moral equivalence between the Israelis and Black September. Black September is shown targeting non-combatant Israeli athletes and the Mossad team is shown targeting only those who planned terrorist attacks -- and not attacking until innocents would not be collateral damage.

JNS

[J. Neil Schulman]

In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled Steven Spielberg's Munich Asks: "Is The 'War on Terrorism' a Real War?", rmlew wrote:

"Actually, Spoielberg changed the postions and key statments of PM Golda Meir. He falsified history to support an ideological position with his bs about civilizations being forced to give up their principles."

First of all, Munich does not claim to be a documentary. It says "inspired by real events" at the beginning and "some events are fictionalized" in credits at the end.

Second, the quote attributed to Golda Meir has to do with a civilization making compromises with its values, not giving them up. ... and even if she did not say this, it's a true statement, since the State of Israel was financing a Mossad cut out to do things which were illegal under Israel's own laws.

The purpose of my article was only to discuss the movie, not to make my own statement regarding what I thought of Israel hunting down and killing Palestinian terrorists. But I have concluded the following:

1) The hunting down and killing of terrorists who plan and commit the murder of innocents is morally justifiable, even if illegal.

2) Israel engaged in this action because it was the only action available to them at the time.

3) It is impossible to engage in the systematic hunting down and killing of terrorists without the terrorists becoming aware that they are being targeted, and escalating their terrorist attacks.

4) Therefore, it takes a country with the military resources of the United States to mobilize sufficient force to be effective in destroying terrorist networks. Israel is simply too small to be effective in such a mission.

5) As I've previously written, in the long term, Israel is not viable as a nation without a superpower such as the United States as its close ally ... and therefore the survival of Jewry primarily depends not on Israel's continued existence, but on the continued existence of the United States.

JNS

[rollo tomasi]

Sorry, I don't believe the concept that humans are naturally good.

Also their mindset is not complex. Of course it might be to those whose agenda is to appease these humans which are carrying some very bad demons.