Purple hearbreakers (James Webb barf alert)

New York Times ^ | January 18, 2006 | James Webb

[balch3]

IT should come as no surprise that an arch-conservative Web site is questioning whether Representative John Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who has been critical of the war in Iraq, deserved the combat awards he received in Vietnam.

After all, in recent years extremist Republican operatives have inverted a longstanding principle: that our combat veterans be accorded a place of honor in political circles. This trend began with the ugly insinuations leveled at Senator John McCain during the 2000 Republican primaries and continued with the slurs against Senators Max Cleland and John Kerry, and now Mr. Murtha.

Military people past and present have good reason to wonder if the current administration truly values their service beyond its immediate effect on its battlefield of choice. The casting of suspicion and doubt about the actions of veterans who have run against President Bush or opposed his policies has been a constant theme of his career. This pattern of denigrating the service of those with whom they disagree risks cheapening the public's appreciation of what it means to serve, and in the long term may hurt the Republicans themselves.

Excerpt

[Dark Knight]

Do erratic tactics reveal an inability to govern under pressure? Ask Jack Kennedy, whose World War II exploits as the skipper of PT-109 began when his boat sank after colliding with a Japanese warship.<<

Yes, it does.

WW 3 did not happen in spite of JFK.

DK

[Thorin]

>>>>>James Webb is one of those guys I could never figure out.

I think Webb is a rare commodity: a genuine American patriot.

[rowhey]

Webb is a candy ass. His service in the war aside...he has made a recent career as an apologist.

Somewhere along the way, he has lost his nerve. And, he is no longer a rockribbed Reaganite.

[churchillbuff]

I think Webb is a rare commodity: a genuine American patriot."""

Yes, and I agree with him that the response to Murtha's statements about Iraq is troubling: Opponents dig up "dirt" about his military record. Instead of answering him on the merits, they resort to trying to slime him. and the message goes out: don't criticize Bush, or your closet will be opened, too. That's Clinton tactics.

[Blzbba]

"I think Webb is a rare commodity: a genuine American patriot."


Agreed.

Why is changing one's mind suddenly a sign of weakness? Most normal people do it all the time.

[rlmorel]

Webb wrote: "...The greater worry is that their attack on Kerry's service may harm the very people the Swifties wish to protect, for their allegations have the potential to negate the service of everyone who was on the boats. If the young John Kerry were so able to manipulate the Navy's system that he unfairly collected five decorations, the system itself has no credibility, and all awards become meaningless..."

No. Not everyone was out gunning for decorations as JFNK was. Most guys just wanted to do their job and go home.

[rlmorel]

Thorin, I disagree.

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason Murtha got any space at all is because he presents himself (and is presented by others) as an unimpeachable source of combat wisdom which lends him credibility.

Because his actions and words have both direct and indirect deleterious effects on the conduct of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as such may increase both the loss of life and the quantity of blood shed by our military, it is not only right, but necessary to debunk him if indeed he is a phony.

The exact same thing was true with John Kerry, and is true now with Murtha.

[pawdoggie]

While I believe that conservatives may overkill "swiftboating" as a tactic to discredit the guys like Murtha, I am also bothered by Mr. Webb's attempt to link "Republicans" (as opposed to a few conservative Web sites) with the questions about Murtha's Purple Hearts. Neither the MSM nor Mr. Webb would ever insinuate that the DNC was behind the George W. Bush MIA from the Air National Guard story (even though Mary Mapes gave her Democrat buddy a heads up on that story), but Mr. Webb will tar all "Republicans" with the same brush, even if the President, Mr. Cheney and the RNC Chairman all have nothing but (undeserved) praise for Murtha.

[Wristpin]

Actually the Dems have been desperately working 24/7 to undermine the President's credibility on military issues. He immediately raised active duty pay massively, increased the VA budget 40 percent and fixed problems he inherited. They work nonstop to make sure he gets ZERO credit for those acheivements.

IRT to Murtha and the Dems...there has been no bigger travesty committed then overwhelming voting to send the military into conflict, then undermining the conflict. They are aiding the enemy and causing more US deaths.

Murtha has the typical DNC service path.. a short tour in a combat zone padding his resume, return to the US and immediately run for political office.

He Purple Heart wounds were to his face...anybody see scars?
Kerry and Murtha have 5 hearts between them with zero visible affects. All he has to do is open his record up to verify his claims.

[Iris7]

Webb has impeccable combat credentials.

Like many old men badly injured on war's sharp end he does not believe that he and others like him can morally be criticized about their wartime experiences by those who have not been there themselves. It is certainly true that attacks on Murtha's Viet Nam record by people who have not even seen war are out of order.

Myself I think Murtha is plagued by his memories. The dreams can get much worse with age. I suspect that he drinks too much. Drinking to escape the dreams is a terrible mistake.

Certainly McCain is totally personally familiar with war's desolation. Admiral Stockdale, Medal of Honor and McCain's commanding officer at the Hanoi Hilton has said that McCain was gallant under torture. If you haven't been there you have absolutely no idea of what that means.

The Swift Boat people's criticism of John Kerry is another thing entirely. The Swifties have earned the right to judge John Kerry. I am a Viet Nam boy myself, and strongly suspected Kerry was what he later proved to be. I held my peace until those men who had to serve with this proven arrogant social climbing coward had had their say.

[Thorin]

>>>>>>Webb is a candy ass.

Webb earned the reputation as being one of the best Marine combat commanders in Vietnam, and no one has done more than James Webb to rehabilitate the public image of Vietnam vets. I don't necessarily agree with him on every issue, but I am confident that he is motivated by love of country and of those who have served America, and not the petty self-promotion that motivates 99% of all politicians.

[Reactionary]

I think I get it: Questioning Kerry's questionable "service" is bad; questioning Bush's stint in the National Guard isn't.

We know the routine.

[robowombat]

Webb is surely the real thing about Viet-Nam service. Here is his citation for the Navy Cross, since it is next to the CMH doing a Kerry on it would be more than difficult:

Webb, James H., Jr.
First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps
Co. D, 1st Bn., 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division
Date of Action: July 10, 1969

Citation:
The Navy Cross is awarded to First Lieutenant James H. Webb, Jr., United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as a Platoon Commander with Company D, First Battalion, Fifth Marines, First Marine Division in connection with combat operations against the enemy in the Republic of Vietnam. On 10 July 1969, while participating in a company-sized search and destroy operation deep in hostile territory, First Lieutenant Webb's platoon discovered a well-camouflaged bunker complex which appeared to be unoccupied. Deploying his men into defensive positions, First Lieutenant Webb was advancing to the first bunker when three enemy soldiers armed with hand grenades jumped out. Reacting instantly, he grabbed the closest man and, brandishing his .45 caliber pistol at the others, apprehended all three of the soldiers. Accompanied by one of his men, he then approached the second bunker and called for the enemy to surrender. When the hostile soldiers failed to answer him and threw a grenade which detonated dangerously close to him, First Lieutenant Webb detonated a claymore mine in the bunker aperture, accounting for two enemy casualties and disclosing the entrance to a tunnel. Despite the smoke and debris from the explosion and the possibility of enemy soldiers hiding in the tunnel, he then conducted a thorough search which yielded several items of equipment and numerous documents containing valuable intelligence data. Continuing the assault, he approached a third bunker and was preparing to fire into it when the enemy threw another grenade. Observing the grenade land dangerously close to his companion, First Lieutenant Webb simultaneously fired his weapon at the enemy, pushed the Marine away from the grenade, and shielded him from the explosion with his own body. Although sustaining painful fragmentation wounds from the explosion, he managed to throw a grenade into the aperture and completely destroy the remaining bunker. By his courage, aggressive leadership, and selfless devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Webb upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service.

Webb seems to be mostly Buchananite in his foreign policy orientation mixed with a kind of generalized rage towards anyone who hasn't been in ground combat ordering US forces, especially Marines, into combat. He appears to genuinely loath GWB. Considering the ferocity of combat in the An Hoi/Arizona Territory that he saw I think (and this is no disparagement of a very brave man) Webb has some issues with internal demons. He is a very interesting person and the Dims who hope he will run for Senate in Va next year when Warner steps down may get something that really don't know how to handle. I can't imagine Webb being one for Senatorial courtesy and the blood in his eye is for most of the inside-the-beltway establishment irrespective of party label.

[Cicero]

I understand your point, but I think you are forgetting that Murtha keeps posing as a military hero. Moreover, whether or not it's his fault, the MSM plays that angle every time they mention him. So it becomes a public issue. You can't permit one side to raise an issue and not allow the other side to talk about it too.

If you are a politician, then you are in public life. If you make an issue of your military service, then that's open to public criticism too. That's very much in contrast to President Bush, who never made a big issue of his National Guard Service. Only his enemies did.

[Jaxter]

"Military people past and present have good reason to wonder if the current administration truly values their service beyond its immediate effect on its battlefield of choice."

Hmmm. Kinda makes you wonder why they don't. /s

[ralice]

Yes he is an authentic American hero. Whether he is exactly right here is a matter of opinion, and I beleive most patriotic American conservatives are of the opinion that he is dead wrong here.

And that's exactly the way the discussion should be framed. Confront people directly on the strength of their arguments, not indirectly with snipy attacks on their service to this country. Even though Kerry was shameless with his "band of brothers" traveling show, the "swift boaters" were out of line - in trying to degrade Kerry's service, they were also attacking the honorable service of others.

I disagree with a previous poster that the "swift boaters" were what prevented a Kerry presidency - KERRY HIMSELF prevented a Kerry presidency. Even his old friend Fritz Hollings lamented that Kerry's positions were so nebulous that "I couldn't see anything there.."

The lameness of their political views are plenty enough to beat them - no one should have to stoop to dishonoring ANYONE's service.

[\/\/ayne]

But against this backdrop we are measuring a sitting President who avoided service in Vietnam altogether, using family strings to gain a spot in the National Guard at a time when the Guard was an undeniable safe haven from war.

This from Webb's previous Swift Boat article, and he does the same in the recent article.

Does anyone see the hypocrisy of how liberals disparage the National Guard and all non combat military service with their constant harping on this subject (they still standing by their hoax memo story and have yet to produce credible "family strings" evidence). And yet they claim we are disparaging military service when simple questions are asked about conflicting service stories and blocked records of public officials!

My understanding is that George W. Bush signed his Form 180 in 2004.

You know, not everybody that serves in the military goes to combat, but 6140 National Guard served in Vietnam and 101 died in combat there.

[robowombat]

I noted in another post that Murtha is typical of a certain class of small town politicians, more in the past than today. These are the fellows who make a long career out of their military service. He operated some sort of car was in Johnstown and volunteered to be mobilized as a reservist and field grade officer. He won election when the incumbent died a couple years later solely off of his military service and he has waved the bloody shirt of his service and wounds ever since. Guys like this used to be much more numerous in elected office. Sam Ervin was sort of that type but once he got in the Senate he shut up about his WW1 service.

[VeniVidiVici]

Murtha brought this on himself by questioning the ability of our troops and deeming them "not worth" of his joining.

Murtha's fault is allowing himself to be a puppet for his Democrat masters.

Read this and then see what you think. Pay particular attention to the comments by Don Bailey, fellow Democrat from Pennsylvania.

If the RATS want to make this an issue, they will be seriously hurt.

[Thorin]

Yeah, some "candy ass:"

Citation: The Navy Cross is awarded to First Lieutenant James H. Webb, Jr., United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as a Platoon Commander with Company D, First Battalion, Fifth Marines, First Marine Division in connection with combat operations against the enemy in the Republic of Vietnam. On 10 July 1969, while participating in a company-sized search and destroy operation deep in hostile territory, First Lieutenant Webb's platoon discovered a well-camouflaged bunker complex which appeared to be unoccupied. Deploying his men into defensive positions, First Lieutenant Webb was advancing to the first bunker when three enemy soldiers armed with hand grenades jumped out. Reacting instantly, he grabbed the closest man and, brandishing his .45 caliber pistol at the others, apprehended all three of the soldiers. Accompanied by one of his men, he then approached the second bunker and called for the enemy to surrender. When the hostile soldiers failed to answer him and threw a grenade which detonated dangerously close to him, First Lieutenant Webb detonated a claymore mine in the bunker aperture, accounting for two enemy casualties and disclosing the entrance to a tunnel. Despite the smoke and debris from the explosion and the possibility of enemy soldiers hiding in the tunnel, he then conducted a thorough search which yielded several items of equipment and numerous documents containing valuable intelligence data. Continuing the assault, he approached a third bunker and was preparing to fire into it when the enemy threw another grenade. Observing the grenade land dangerously close to his companion, First Lieutenant Webb simultaneously fired his weapon at the enemy, pushed the Marine away from the grenade, and shielded him from the explosion with his own body. Although sustaining painful fragmentation wounds from the explosion, he managed to throw a grenade into the aperture and completely destroy the remaining bunker. By his courage, aggressive leadership, and selfless devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Webb upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service.