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Fossil find prompts rethink on dinosaur feathers
Yahoo (Reuters) ^ | 3/15/2006 | Patricia Reaney

Posted on 03/15/2006 12:23:34 PM PST by The_Victor

LONDON (Reuters) - A newly discovered, perfectly preserved fossil of a 150 million-year-old dinosaur found in southern Germany may force scientists to rethink how and when feathers evolved.

The nearly complete remains of the chicken-size dinosaur named Juravenator, which is described in the journal Nature on Wednesday, were preserved in limestone. But unlike other members of the group of two-legged meat-eating predators known as coelurosaurs, it had no feathers.

"It is an absolutely new dinosaur that was not known before," said Ursula Gohlich, a palaeontologist at the University of Munich in Germany.

Remains of small dinosaurs from the Late Jurassic period are rare finds. The new fossil is nearly complete, apart from a missing part of its long tail, and shows soft tissue and an imprint of the skin but no feathers.

"Scientists had thought that all representatives of the group coelurosaurs should have feathers," Gohlich told Reuters.

"Now we have a little dinosaur that belongs to coelurosaurs that does not show feathers. This is a problem."

COMPLEX EVOLUTION

Feathers were thought to have evolved very early within coelurosaurs. All members of the group were thought to be feathered.

But Gohlich and Luis Chiappe, of the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County in California, believe the evolution of feathers may be more complex than previously thought.

Feathers may have evolved early but then were replaced by scales in some creatures because they were not needed.

"Another possibility perhaps is that some representatives of coelurosaurs were not entirely covered with feathers, only certain areas," said Gohlich.

The newly discovered Juravenator was very young so may not have lived long enough to develop feathers. But Gohlich said that despite its age, she would have expected it to have had feathers.

"We think that feathers evolved. We have several fossils that support this theory. But our fossil asks some questions," she added.

The oldest known bird, Archaeopteryx, was also found in southern Germany. It too lived about 150 million years ago and had feathers but it is uncertain whether they were used to fly or to keep warm.

Xing Xu, of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing, said whatever the explanation, the discovery of Juravenator has enriched knowledge of early feather evolution. It could also indicate where future research could be concentrated.

"Juravenator may complicate the picture, but it makes it more complete and realistic," he said in a commentary in the journal.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution
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To: PatrickHenry
"Now we have a little dinosaur that belongs to coelurosaurs that does not show feathers. This is a problem."

Maybe it died from a disease that made its feathers fall out; or maybe it died after moulting. Hard to draw firm conclusions based on a single data point.

21 posted on 03/15/2006 12:49:02 PM PST by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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To: orionblamblam
Yup. Wonderful thing, science. It incorporates new evidence, rather than just closing its eyes, sticking its fingers in its ears and humming real loud.

Yup. Ignoring evidence that doesn't fit is an exorcise for the ignorant.

22 posted on 03/15/2006 12:49:21 PM PST by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
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To: orionblamblam
is an exorcise for the ignorant

I hate typos that are real words.

exorcise=exercise

23 posted on 03/15/2006 12:52:07 PM PST by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
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To: longshadow
I agree. A while ago, there was a thread about some partial footprints that were found somewhere.

The scientists said this was an exciting discovery because these partial footprints belonged to an aqauatic dinosaur, that was a vegetarian, and a precursor to birds.

I said "Whoa! That's a lot of conjecture! It's hard to draw such firm conclusions from a single data point."

'Course the Evos shouted me down and called me a fool.

24 posted on 03/15/2006 12:52:57 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Never question Bruce Dickinson!)
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To: The_Victor
"...., it had no feathers."

Yet.

25 posted on 03/15/2006 12:53:22 PM PST by labette (..to hit the ball and touch 'em all, a moment in the sun....)
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To: wallcrawlr

"Constantly searching for objectivity in the evolution debate..."

Hmm . . . objectivity on a evo thread. . . . nah, it'll never happen.


26 posted on 03/15/2006 12:54:44 PM PST by webstersII
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To: The_Victor
... edited for clarity (hard, objective science clarity)

Fossil find prompts rethink on dinosaur feathers
Yahoo (Reuters) ^ | 3/15/2006 | Patricia Reaney

Posted on 03/15/2006 3:23:34 PM EST by The_Victor

LONDON (Reuters) - A newly discovered, perfectly preserved fossil of a 150 million-year-old dinosaur found in southern Germany may force scientists to rethink how and when feathers evolved.

The nearly complete remains of the chicken-size dinosaur named Juravenator, which is described in the journal Nature on Wednesday, were preserved in limestone. But unlike other members of the group of two-legged meat-eating predators known as coelurosaurs, it had no feathers.

"It is an absolutely new dinosaur that was not known before," said Ursula Gohlich, a palaeontologist at the University of Munich in Germany.

Remains of small dinosaurs from the Late Jurassic period are rare finds. The new fossil is nearly complete, apart from a missing part of its long tail, and shows soft tissue and an imprint of the skin but no feathers.

"Scientists had thought that all representatives of the group coelurosaurs should have feathers," Gohlich told Reuters.

"Now we have a little dinosaur that belongs to coelurosaurs that does not show feathers. This is a problem."

COMPLEX EVOLUTION

Feathers were thought to have evolved very early within coelurosaurs. All members of the group were thought to be feathered.

But Gohlich and Luis Chiappe, of the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County in California, believe the evolution of feathers may be more complex than previously thought.

Feathers may have evolved early but then were replaced by scales in some creatures because they were not needed.

"Another possibility perhaps is that some representatives of coelurosaurs were not entirely covered with feathers, only certain areas," said Gohlich.

The newly discovered Juravenator was very young so may not have lived long enough to develop feathers. But Gohlich said that despite its age, she would have expected it to have had feathers.

"We think that feathers evolved. We have several fossils that support this theory. But our fossil asks some questions," she added.

The oldest known bird, Archaeopteryx, was also found in southern Germany. It too lived about 150 million years ago and had feathers but it is uncertain whether they were used to fly or to keep warm.

Xing Xu, of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing, said whatever the explanation, the discovery of Juravenator has enriched knowledge of early feather evolution. It could also indicate where future research could be concentrated.

"Juravenator may complicate the picture, but it makes it more complete and realistic," he said in a commentary in the journal.


27 posted on 03/15/2006 12:56:08 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (outside a good dog, a book is your best friend. inside a dog it's too dark to read)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

28 posted on 03/15/2006 12:58:51 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory. Lots of links on my homepage...)
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To: The_Victor

The "feathers" look like a form of mold that grows on dead bodies even to this day.


29 posted on 03/15/2006 1:00:12 PM PST by JohnCliftn (In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Good Will.)
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To: The_Victor
Time for another revision to the "family" tree.

Exactly. Thanks to this fossil find, we now have another piece of evidence that can be used to more exactly discern the evolutionary link between birds and their reptilian ancestors. Great article!

30 posted on 03/15/2006 1:00:21 PM PST by Quark2005 (Confidence follows from consilience.)
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To: The_Victor
["Another possibility perhaps is that some representatives of coelurosaurs were not entirely covered with feathers, only certain areas," said Gohlich. The newly discovered Juravenator was very young so may not have lived long enough to develop feathers. But Gohlich said that despite its age, she would have expected it to have had feathers.]



Another possibility is that the feathers may have been removed before the corpse was fossilized. My folks have chickens on their farm and some of them are plucked half bald by other chickens. I've also seen a few chickens after the coyotes have ripped them up and there is a nice skeleton left over with most of the meat, skin and feathers gone.
31 posted on 03/15/2006 1:01:32 PM PST by spinestein (The network news is to journalism what McDonald's is to food.)
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To: Quark2005
Exactly. Thanks to this fossil find, we now have another piece of evidence that can be used to more exactly discern the evolutionary link between birds and their reptilian ancestors. Great article!

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winna!

Of course, we don't know how many times feathers may have evolved independently.

32 posted on 03/15/2006 1:04:50 PM PST by balrog666 (Come and see my new profile! Changed yet again!)
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To: spinestein

Some dogs know better than to eat chicken bones.


33 posted on 03/15/2006 1:04:56 PM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: PatrickHenry
It's not terribly shattering if there was a coelurosaur with no feathers. Not all of the traits that define a group have to appear at the same time. Traits can disappear. There's a mammal called a pangolin that has scales all over its body. Is that a problem for evolution or an atavism that points to a reptilian origin for mammals?
34 posted on 03/15/2006 1:06:02 PM PST by VadeRetro (I have the updated "Your brain on creationism" on my homepage.)
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To: The_Victor

Good article... of course there are going to be people who think, "Ah Ha! Evolution is wrong!". They are of course grasping at straws.


35 posted on 03/15/2006 1:10:19 PM PST by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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To: VadeRetro

"There's a mammal called a pangolin that has scales all over its body."

Yup, and there are several mammals that lay eggs, too. The pangolin looks something like those old extinct mammals that nobody pays much attention to.

The American Museum of Natural History has an entire room of huge, bizarre mammal fossils. It's an interesting look into the not so distant past.


36 posted on 03/15/2006 1:12:41 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: VadeRetro
It's not terribly shattering if there was a coelurosaur with no feathers. Not all of the traits that define a group have to appear at the same time. Traits can disappear.

And, of course, there are evolutionary cul-de-sacs too. Fitting the piece into the puzzle correctly is the key.

37 posted on 03/15/2006 1:12:58 PM PST by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
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To: VadeRetro; PatrickHenry
It's not terribly shattering if there was a coelurosaur with no feathers. Not all of the traits that define a group have to appear at the same time. Traits can disappear. There's a mammal called a pangolin that has scales all over its body. Is that a problem for evolution or an atavism that points to a reptilian origin for mammals?

It is amazing the glee in some posters' eyes when scientists admit either that they made a mistake or have learned something they didn't know.

But science does not fear new data. Individual scientists may cling to pet theories, but that only lasts for a few years. When an idea is right, with the right combination of data and theory, nothing can hold it back. When mistakes are made, science figures out what went wrong, corrects the mistake, and moves on.

I think that some of those expressing the most glee are secretly both envious and afraid of science. The next new discovery could cause them to doubt a cherished belief.

38 posted on 03/15/2006 1:15:11 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: VadeRetro
Here's a pangolin. We might also think about the Armadillo, another armored mammal:


39 posted on 03/15/2006 1:15:30 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: ClearCase_guy
.... shouted me down and called me a fool.

If you improperly equate these two instances, they were probably right.

A fossil is a snap shot in time of a particular creature as it's body was covered in mud or silt; that being the case, one can't conclude based on a single case, if it was featherless because if had no feathers, or if it moulted before dying, or scavangers devoured the feathers after death but before the body was covered up with silt. [Caveat: if the fossil is sufficient quality that it shows skin details, I MAY be possible to deduce that the creature NEVER had feathers; just as one can tell between the skin of plucked chicken and the skin of a human, which one had feathers and which didn't.]

A foot print, on the other hand, is a foot print indicating a particular creature stepped in a particular place at some point in time. If you have evidence that based solely on the footprint and no other information, some scientist concluded the creature had to be vegetarian, feel free to post it.

40 posted on 03/15/2006 1:16:17 PM PST by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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