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NYC Adding 500 Cameras, Want to Track People, Cars.
New York Daily News ^ | March 22, 2006 | ALISON GENDAR and MICHAEL SAUL

Posted on 03/22/2006 6:39:18 AM PST by af_vet_rr

New Yorkers, get ready for your closeup.

The NYPD is installing 505 surveillance cameras around the city - and pushing to safeguard lower Manhattan with a "ring of steel" that could track hundreds of thousands of people and cars a day, authorities revealed yesterday.
..
The NYPD also has applied for $81.5 million in federal aid to install surveillance cameras, computerized license plate readers and vehicle barriers around lower Manhattan, Kelly said.
..
But don't expect the NYPD to install its cameras without battling the New York Civil Liberties Union. The watchdog group's associate legal director, Chris Dunn, questioned the plan.

"Commissioner Kelly may be ready to launch us all into a surveillance society, but we believe cameras are not a cure-all for crime and terrorism," Dunn said. "It is far from clear that cameras deter crime."

(Excerpt) Read more at nydailynews.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 1984; 4a; 4thamendment; banglist; bigbrother; camera; cameras; fourthamendment; internalpassport; monitor; monitoring; nyc; nypd; papersplease; police; searchandseizure; surveillance; tollway; wot
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How long before your small towns want to start acting like the big boys and add something similar, to go along with their SWAT-team outfitted Barney Fifes? (Of course some small towns in Florida are already going the surveillance route, which makes me wonder why the people there accept it).

I don't even want to think what NYC will be like 20 years from now.

1 posted on 03/22/2006 6:39:19 AM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr

We should be doing this a LOT more. Remember when the Brits were bombed, and they ID'd the suspects within minutes, and arrested the accomplices? We'd have no idea who did it, if that happened here.

It would also reduce general crime.


2 posted on 03/22/2006 6:42:44 AM PST by Brilliant
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To: af_vet_rr

Big Brother, your home is in the Big Apple.


3 posted on 03/22/2006 6:45:57 AM PST by JamesP81
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To: Brilliant

"We should be doing this a LOT more. Remember when the Brits were bombed, and they ID'd the suspects within minutes, and arrested the accomplices? We'd have no idea who did it, if that happened here.

It would also reduce general crime.

"

I think you're going to find, shortly, that most people on Free Republic don't much like the idea of Big Brother watching our every movement.


4 posted on 03/22/2006 6:49:56 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: af_vet_rr
Perhaps the citizens need an organization of retirees', armed with video cameras, following elected officials, police officers, city and county workers, etc. etc. around the clock and see exactly we, John / Jane Q public, are getting for their tax money.




5 posted on 03/22/2006 6:50:31 AM PST by G.Mason (Duty, Honor, Country)
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To: MineralMan

Most people on FR may not like it but then they don't work in lower Manhattan.


6 posted on 03/22/2006 6:54:16 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: Brilliant
We should be doing this a LOT more. Remember when the Brits were bombed, and they ID'd the suspects within minutes, and arrested the accomplices? We'd have no idea who did it, if that happened here.

It would also reduce general crime.

Perhaps we should also ban guns? How about having document checks at every street corner so we can ferret out the illegals?

I just fail to understand "conservatives" that are so willing to trust big government under the guise of "safety".

7 posted on 03/22/2006 6:55:52 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: ladyjane; All
bahh bahh black sheep have you any wool
8 posted on 03/22/2006 6:56:47 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: Brilliant
We should be doing this a LOT more. Remember when the Brits were bombed, and they ID'd the suspects within minutes, and arrested the accomplices? We'd have no idea who did it, if that happened here.

I'm not a big fan of government tracking its subjects, err citizens, nor do I react very well to the government using terrorism to justify this or that.
9 posted on 03/22/2006 6:59:29 AM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: ladyjane

If constant surveillance of this sort is absolutely necessary for the safety of people living and working in lower Manhattan, then lower Manhattan should be vacated in its entirety and turned into a park.


10 posted on 03/22/2006 7:02:34 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: af_vet_rr
safeguard lower Manhattan with a "ring of steel"

"Ring of steel" -- my hairy purple donkey.

It is a ring of mush. Good only for possibly finding the perps after they have committed the crime.

If they want a "ring of steel" they need to allow concealed carry. I have no fear of armed bankers and stockbrokers walking the streets of Manhattan, but the thugs and muggers certainly do.

Taking pictures of the license plates of stolen and rented cars will never prevent terrorism or crime.

11 posted on 03/22/2006 7:03:55 AM PST by CurlyDave
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To: ladyjane
"Most people on FR may not like it but then they don't work in lower Manhattan."

I was in Lower Manhattan once and some guy was walking down the street backwards and whistling at people. What the hell?! Kind of looked like this guy:


12 posted on 03/22/2006 7:07:20 AM PST by jdm
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To: af_vet_rr

An easier solution to the problems of crime in lower Manhattan is to move to someplace else. Like Utah. I moved here 24 years ago and have never regretted it for one second. I'm very happy with a substantially lower income. I can shoot, hunt, ski, camp, fish, carry a concealed weapon with the greatest of ease and especially nice is the fact that the legislature only meets for 45 days once a year.


13 posted on 03/22/2006 7:11:11 AM PST by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand - If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: jdm

That freak show picture made me almost barf up my breakfast....Triple hurl........../seoul62


14 posted on 03/22/2006 7:16:24 AM PST by seoul62 (Just asking, Seoul62)
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To: af_vet_rr
We already have a bunch of them in Chattanooga, TN. Yes, little Chattanooga. Seems that the JBT's can't wait to get them either.

Of course, none of the cameras has stopped the recent bunch of car break-ins and such in downtown.

15 posted on 03/22/2006 7:16:54 AM PST by meyer (Dems are stuck on stupid. Al Gore invented stupid.)
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To: af_vet_rr

When you're in public, there is no privacy.


16 posted on 03/22/2006 7:21:37 AM PST by Brilliant
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To: ContemptofCourt

It's not like they are looking in your windows. When you walk down the street, you are subject to being observed or filmed by anyone. Why shouldn't the government monitor public areas where crime is prevalent? The primary job of government is to maintain security.


17 posted on 03/22/2006 7:24:34 AM PST by Brilliant
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To: Brilliant
We should be doing this a LOT more.

I hope you're kidding.

18 posted on 03/22/2006 7:24:49 AM PST by elkfersupper
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To: vrwc0915

I suggest that you move out of your $6 million downtown condo immediately.


19 posted on 03/22/2006 7:26:26 AM PST by durasell (!)
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To: elkfersupper

Nope, I'm not. No one has given me a good reason yet why government should not monitor high crime public areas. Just that they don't like it. That isn't a reason.


20 posted on 03/22/2006 7:26:57 AM PST by Brilliant
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To: Brilliant

You'll never convince them that anything that goes on in NYC is good...I'm giving up on it.


21 posted on 03/22/2006 7:27:57 AM PST by durasell (!)
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To: G.Mason

I'll vote for that!


22 posted on 03/22/2006 7:32:00 AM PST by Sarajevo
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To: Brilliant

Exactly.
But there are `V for Vendetta'/`Handmaid's Tale', loony left March Hares who will tell you different. It's a government conspiracy, can't you see?
Why, we're Winston Smith being hounded by Big Brother . . . when in fact the camera are recording insurance fraud or speeders.
But that's not very exciting, is it?
I expect Hollywood to give us a truly radical new movie soon: in it, George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld are heroes saving the world from hateful terrorism, while Saddam and bin Laden are evil conspirators. Our troops are brave and fearless while the terrorists are cowardly murderers.
But I won't hold my breath . . . .


23 posted on 03/22/2006 7:32:27 AM PST by tumblindice
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To: Brilliant

Well, then - enjoy your Gulag. Just don't advocate it for the rest of us.


24 posted on 03/22/2006 7:40:15 AM PST by elkfersupper
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To: jdm

David Lee Roth?


25 posted on 03/22/2006 7:42:20 AM PST by Sometimes A River (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46031)
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To: Blue Jays
Hi All-

Statists of all stripes are dangerous...whether right or left. Cameras will NOT make anyone "safer" and are purely reactive in nature. Something has to happen before they become of any use.

For all the fans of these devices out there...how are you going to feel when you're scooped-up in an investigation because you bear a striking resemblance to a criminal as captured by a grainy image from a faraway camera? One might be cleared down the road, but you have to deal with friends, family, and employers during the media crush.

Call me a Luddite if you wish (I'm not, I'm in the technology sector...) but I'd prefer my police and criminal investigations be fully prosecuted the traditional way. Inviting more and more cameras is a lazy shortcut and will lead to mistakes. Don't fall for the cheap bait of "public safety" assurances.

~ Blue Jays ~

26 posted on 03/22/2006 7:43:23 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Blue Jays
You will never convince the jackboot lickers that they alone are responsible for their safety
27 posted on 03/22/2006 7:53:52 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: Travis McGee

Ping.


28 posted on 03/22/2006 7:57:23 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: Acts 2:38

Yeah, or Tim Robbins or Gene Simmons too!!!


29 posted on 03/22/2006 8:00:37 AM PST by jdm
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To: vrwc0915

Carlie Brucia wasn't a `jackboot licker'. http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/carliebrucia.htm


30 posted on 03/22/2006 8:06:59 AM PST by tumblindice
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To: elkfersupper

Pathetic. Who said anything about a gulag? You can pay hundreds of billions of dollars to employ tens of thousands of policemen to walk the beat, or you can install a $200 camera. Efficiency demands the $200 camera.

Your argument reminds me of the Dem's claim that Bush is spying on everyone in America because he's intercepting phone calls from terrorist phone numbers overseas to the US. It's a nonsequitur.


31 posted on 03/22/2006 8:10:23 AM PST by Brilliant
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To: tumblindice

A tragic story for sure. That is why my children are never out of my sight in public and I have the will and means to stop any threat to my children. Did a camera help that poor girl and what she had to endure?


32 posted on 03/22/2006 8:10:56 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: Blue Jays

I suppose you're against DNA evidence as well, as `intrusive'?


33 posted on 03/22/2006 8:11:09 AM PST by tumblindice
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To: af_vet_rr; ladyjane

This doesn't bother me at all. And if these are like the existing cameras, anybody can link to them via the Internet. Came in very handy during the Republican convention, when I had to be in the office on the weekend, and the leftists were threatening to march through an area very close to my office, that the police had declared off limits, to an illegal mass demonstration in Central Park. I could check what was going on in the streets before leaving the office, to make sure I wasn't going to find myself tangled up in a violent mob scene. The leftists' planned civil disobedience didn't really materialize (sort of like their planned mega-protests this past weekend), but if they had, I could have monitored the situation from the safety of my office, and waited until the streets were under control before venturing outside.

Of course we should be vigilant, and if we detect any abuse of the surveillance camera network, we must raise a massive ruckus. But I'm not interested in hamstringing our law enforcement agencies by declaring them guilty before they've done anything wrong. Keep in mind that al-Qaeda operatives are perfectly free to set up a similar network in the city. There's no shortage of tall, strategically-placed buildings where anyone can rent or sublet an apartment.


34 posted on 03/22/2006 8:12:54 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: tumblindice; vrwc0915
Hi tumblindice-

That's just the point, Carlie Brucia is still dead. The outside world is dangerous and to place faith in cameras, RFID tags, and monitors to magically "create" safety is misplaced.

~ Blue Jays ~

35 posted on 03/22/2006 8:12:58 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: vrwc0915

No, because it was apparently not being monitored closely enough.
Game, set, match.


36 posted on 03/22/2006 8:13:03 AM PST by tumblindice
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To: Brilliant
Who said anything about a gulag?

You did. You just used different words. And you repeated it in the next sentence.

You can pay hundreds of billions of dollars to employ tens of thousands of policemen to walk the beat

37 posted on 03/22/2006 8:14:09 AM PST by elkfersupper
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To: tumblindice
"Game, set, match."

I guess you think you nanny state logic has me cowering

38 posted on 03/22/2006 8:15:11 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: Blue Jays

Hi Blue Jays, didn't mean to ignore you.
How's tricks?


39 posted on 03/22/2006 8:17:10 AM PST by tumblindice
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To: vrwc0915

If you say so, but No need to cower. A pleasure enlightening you.
Have a good one!


40 posted on 03/22/2006 8:19:43 AM PST by tumblindice
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To: elkfersupper

OK, so you're saying that employing policeman to walk the beat is the equivalent of forced labor camps? I can see this conversation is going nowhere.


41 posted on 03/22/2006 8:22:00 AM PST by Brilliant
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To: tumblindice
Hi tumblindice-

"...I suppose you're against DNA evidence as well, as `intrusive'?..."


If a police officer approaches me in a crowded shopping mall and asks me for a DNA sample, you're darn right I'm opposed to it as being intrusive! That's essentially what government cameras are doing, they're peering into our lives and monitoring our comings and goings even though we've done nothing wrong. It is a broadbrush approach. I'll also stake the value of my home that any bureaucrat pushing for cameras will stridently advocate facial recognition software next year. It's a no-brainer.

Do you feel any apprehension at all knowing that your identity would be known and that you were FReeping from the Starbucks hotspot on the corner of Nassau Place & Liberty Street on Wednesday, March 22 @ 11:20 a.m. while wearing a beige dress and red scarf? Why should your life or mine be an open book to someone who happened to pass a civil service exam?

~ Blue Jays ~

42 posted on 03/22/2006 8:28:03 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: tumblindice
I don't understand your post to me about "tricks" or what that is intended to mean.
43 posted on 03/22/2006 8:31:24 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Brilliant
When you're in public, there is no privacy.

When the government tracks your movement, there is no privacy (or freedom).

Cameras won't keep you from getting shot, stabbed, mugged, whatever.

As a matter of fact, did you know that we had plenty of video footage of the 9/11 hijackers as they made their way on board the planes?

Cameras did the people in the WTC, Pentagon, and those aircraft a whole helluva lot of good, didn't they?
44 posted on 03/22/2006 8:31:26 AM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: MineralMan
I think you're going to find, shortly, that most people on Free Republic don't much like the idea of Big Brother watching our every movement.

Yet the vast majority of them will also tell you that the Bush wiretapping issue isn't a problem - because they're only looking for terrorists. Can't have it both ways...

If they're not mugging folks on Main St, or running red lights, what are they worried about?

45 posted on 03/22/2006 8:32:43 AM PST by Living Free in NH
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To: af_vet_rr
The NYPD is installing 505 surveillance cameras around the city - and pushing to safeguard lower Manhattan with a "ring of steel" that could track hundreds of thousands of people and cars a day, authorities revealed yesterday. .. The NYPD also has applied for $81.5 million in federal aid to install surveillance cameras, computerized license plate readers and vehicle barriers around lower Manhattan, Kelly said.

George Orwell's book 1984 was not so much a warning, as a training manual.

Doubleplus ungood.

46 posted on 03/22/2006 8:32:55 AM PST by Lazamataz (THE FUTURE IS NOW!!!!)
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To: Lazamataz

Freedom through Surveillance.


47 posted on 03/22/2006 8:36:53 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Lazamataz; All
Comrades if you are not doing anything wrong than you have nothing to fear

If you aren't hiding anything then you shouldn't mind a cavity search comrade

If you don't have anything forbidden by the party then you shouldn't mind if we take a look in you house

48 posted on 03/22/2006 8:36:58 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: GovernmentShrinker
Hi Government Shrinker-

My opinion is that one could also learn about traffic jams and mass demonstrations by listening to the radio, watching TV, or accessing sites like FoxNews.com for updates. That should provide more than enough information to make a decision about one's evening commute home on trains, buses, and ferries. This prevents us from having to contend with statist abuse of the camera network, which would be a bundle.

~ Blue Jays ~

49 posted on 03/22/2006 8:37:16 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

The downtown and financial districts of all big cities are blanketed with cameras already.

I can't imagine a square block in business areas in Manhattan that isn't already covered with cameras.


50 posted on 03/22/2006 8:38:09 AM PST by ladyjane
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