Posted on 04/01/2006 6:40:33 PM PST by twippo
I have been a member of the church of Christ for 35 years, and my family has been a part of the church for at least 5 generations. I have never heard anybody use those terms! There are people all over the world that follow God's word. They may or may not have a sign nailed on the wall where they worship that says "Church of Christ, but they are Christians according to God's commands.
Old Testament history and prophecy is complicated, and I have not studied it enough in recent years, but the only remnant I've ever seen discussed in the Bible is the remnant of Israel. Could I be a part of that remnant if I'm not Jewish?
"They may or may not have a sign nailed on the wall where they worship that says "Church of Christ, but they are Christians according to God's commands."
You are saying what I posted just using different words.
That's good to know! I thought you were saying that people who go to the Church of Christ believe that everyone has to be a member of the denominational group the Church of Christ to be saved. There are plenty of Christians who don't attend a Church of Christ and are trying to follow New Testament Christianty as closely as they can. We are all predestined to be children of God, but we must choose to follow him.
Kip McKean did come out of what was a mainstream church, the Crossroads Church of Christ in Gainesville, FL. When I was in junior high, there was much talk and fear of the Crossroads movement. By the time I was in college, it was called the Boston Movement and the Discipling Movement. I had a friend who moved several hundred miles away from home after college and got caught up in it. Back then there was no scientific proof that they used brainwashing techniques, but many in the mainstream churches realized they were. I could never understand how my friend got caught up in it. She was so intelligent and strong willed. Once she had a close family member die in her hometown (her brother or her grandfather), and her mentor or elders or whoever had to approve her actions would not let her come home. I spent many hours looking at reveal.org about a year ago when someone pointed me to it and wondering whatever happened to my friend. I've lost touch with her.
Until I saw your explanations, I had never understood what the Baptists believe about baptism. I had friends growing up that "got saved", but all were subsequently baptized. I thought it just semantics. Now that you have expressed your belief that a work of man as you call it (baptism) is not the method by which we are saved, it makes the Baptist's beliefs more clear. When my friends used to say "I got saved at church today," they obviously went through some ritual. I assumed it was walking down the aisle, telling the minister that they wanted to be saved, and confessing their belief before the congregation. I assume you are going to tell me that none of that was required. All they had to do was hear and believe in their heart. Do you believe that repentence and confession are necessary to be saved or only hearing and belief?
I haven't seen anyone else ask this question. In the record of conversions to Christiantiy in Acts, you can find examples of hearing, believing, repenting and confessing, but you never see all four of those listed in every incident. However you do see baptism listed in every incident. If it is not necessary, why is it in every example in Acts?
Lots of things happened in Acts that do not happen anywhere else. It's called a transition book for good reason. The Gospel was about to be preached to the Gentiles, who did not seek after a sign as did the Jews.
So baptism as an OUTWARD sign of the inward change was very important in the lives of these Jewish believers.
It didn't save them, but it did add them to the church, as the Bible says.
I believe that salvation is fully by Grace, not of any work that man can do, inclduing baptism.
Salvation by baptism is a belief that started with the Catholic church and continues there today.
What a shame. I just do not understand how people get hooked into a cult.
Years ago our Church of Christ had a series of lessons on how to identify a cult. This was after the Jim Jones massacre I think.
One of the main indicators was that a cult will try and break family ties while a true church supports families.
Other indicators are excessive control of lives, your funds. Apparently they use the mentoring to dwelve into the lives of members and teach that they are to obey that mentor.
So signs of a cult....
Loss of freedom to make own decisions
Efforts to break family ties
Having to obey another member
No encouragement for the individual to verify teaching with the Bible.
I just do not understand how a person could fall into such a cult. I would run as fast as I could as the hair on the back of my neck would be standing up.
You are saying that you believe in baptism for believers but I don't understand that as anyone has to believe first before they would even be thinking about baptism.
You hear the word, think it over and believe it or not. Then you decide - yes, I believe Jesus is the Son of God and he died for me. Then - if you believe - you want to know what you are to do be saved, so - you see repent of your sins and be baptised for the remission of those sins and you will be saved. (You are already in the belief and acceptance stage).
We are also told that in baptism we are buried with Christ and we arise a new person free of all past sins and we then have the gift of the Holy Spirit living in us.
Seems like splitting hairs to me. And, the Baptists claim they are saved by faith - but, that faith is not expressed by faithfully following the verses in the Bible that say repent and be baptised. So, where is the faith?
Just discussing here - no offense.
No offense taken. :-)
"That's good to know! I thought you were saying that people who go to the Church of Christ believe that everyone has to be a member of the denominational group the Church of Christ to be saved."
That is what I said. And it is what the mainline CofC say.
You just cannot understand.
We are saying that anyone can go to the Bible for instruction on being a Christian. They do not need to be Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist. When they go directly to the Bible and follow instructions found there - they are Christians.
Now - that is what the Church of Christ (the group of churches with that name on the door) has done. So they are really just Christians - not a member of a denomination. That is why there is no governing board, no central headquarters - just stand alone congregations. Some congregations may err and make mistakes but that does not affect the other congregations. This allows the church to remain true to the Bible. Each group of elders lead from the Bible instructions.
Now - of course, when you go to the Bible and follow what God says - you are doing what God wanted and will receive salvation. So, we are the same as that person who just read the Bible and followed the instructions to be a Christian (not Church of Christ, not Methodist, Catholic, etc.)
If you will just get away from denominations and understand that we claim we are not a denomination - we are just biblical christians. So, when we say we are following God's instructions, you bet we are and therefore the claims that we are correct are true. Why wouldn't they be?
Why do you more readily believe what your denomination tells you than what God tells you in His word?
" It (baptism) didn't save them, but it did add them to the church, as the Bible says."
IMO, I think this is where a difference of opinion exists...
Some people believe that when you are saved, you are automatically a member of the Lord's church and there is not a seperate ceremony or statement of faith or commitment or whatever. I'm not sure that any of us know the actual moment that happens as I believe salvation is a process. I believe it says in Acts that THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED WERE ADDED TO THE CHURCH. It doesn't say that they were voted on or asked to be members, but to me, implies that it was automatic. GOD added them. I hadn't heard Acts called a book of transition, but it gives the history of the early church, so I would think it would be considered valid whether it is applied to Jews or Greeks, etc.
Why would or how could one be saved and NOT a member of the church???
Also, IMO, the 'work' done in baptism is God's work, not a work done by a believer...it is something done in obedience to God's word. Besides faith without works is dead, but I think that's already been discussed here.
Whoever spoke for "mainline" churches of Christ is misinformed. There may be individual congregations that have some of the beliefs presented, but there is a lot of variation from congregation to congregation.
I believe we will be judged as individuals and not as congregations or denominations anyway and God will be fair and just.
It is our job to continue to study and grow. Many people change their opinions about issues over the years when they realize what they have been taught is a tradition rather than a command. It has happened to me and I'm sure God will show me more ways that I need to change in the future. Peace.
Don't you think that the CofC is a denomination? I do.
You might claim it, but it isn't true.
And, just how would you know it is true or not? How often have you attended the church?
"There's the option of allowing priests to marry, but require that their children be grown."
Good idea. Actually, the Apostle Paul suggests just such a system both in his letters to Timothy and to Titus.
Those scriptures say that elders (also translated "pastors," "overseers," or "bishops") of the church are to be of impeccible character. They are to have only one wife and children who are old enough to be believers and who respect and obey him "for if anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?"
Young men may be spiritually zealous, but it sounds to me like church leadership was meant for the spiritually mature.
Some things just take time and experience.
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