Evolution: If It Walks Like a Fish ...

"The origin of chromosome count diversity is a legitimate question."

True. But a chromosome count change is not needed for speciation to occur. I was making that point.

41 posted on 04/09/2006 7:23:50 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")

They don't hate you ... they hate ME .. Jesus.

You're Jesus? Wow. Who knew that he was a FReeper?

On alternate days, do you happen to be the Easter Bunny too?

42 posted on 04/09/2006 7:27:28 AM PDT by peyton randolph (Time for an electoral revolution where the ballot box is the guillotine)

To: CarolinaGuitarman

I understand your point, but when we claim common descent, we need to be able to demonstrate that changes in chromosome count are possible and that variations within a population do not always lead to sterility or retardation.

43 posted on 04/09/2006 7:28:23 AM PDT by js1138 (~()):~)>)

To: PatrickHenry

Look around.

Everything has an opposite... At what point do opposites repel? There is obviously a meeting point where conflict happens. I would say that is where likeness meets. We see in creation a perfect circle...

Ever play with two magnets? It is neat to feel the forces of north meeting north or south meeting south as they repel there is obvious friction. Yet when north meets south there is obvious attraction...

It is said in people that opposites attract... If I look at my wife, we are opposites in a lot of ways yet we have harmony in our differences. Our conflicts actually only occur where we are the same... like north meeting north on a magnet... It may appear that we have a difference during an argument but it is actually just a different take on what we actually agree on... funny how things come full circle...

I would argue conflict happens where likeness meets. However, you can argue that like minded people group together in flocks and have little conflict so to speak... but the more I think about that, it is because there is an equal opposite to oppose that like minded group like in politics... Liberal vs. Conservative... You have one group of like minded people opposing their exact opposite. You can have a group of likeness with no or little conflict only because it is part of a larger group that has an equal opposite. You do have some in fighting but I would argue that is where likeness meets or where one person is actually on the wrong side of polarity and being repelled out... There is no such thing then as a liberal conservative. You are either one or the other. The middle ground is where conflict occurs.

Everything has an opposite...

We are all part of one giant universal magnet. We are all playing our part... and have no control to change it... it is what it is

Can you change your polarity? When and how is your polarity chosen?

Night / Day

Heaven / Hell

Male / Female

Strong / Weak

Hot / Cold

Wet / Dry

Happy / Sad

North / South

Left / Right

Big / Small

Winter / Summer

Black / White

etc...

=)

44 posted on 04/09/2006 7:30:09 AM PDT by dubie

"I understand your point, but when we claim common descent, we need to be able to demonstrate that changes in chromosome count are possible and that variations within a population do not always lead to sterility or retardation."

I gotcha; the discussion hadn't gotten that far.

45 posted on 04/09/2006 7:32:40 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")

what you wrote seems to make sense, but I don't understand what you are replying to.

46 posted on 04/09/2006 7:36:13 AM PDT by bobdsmith

Why don't we see this today? If there are "transitional" species, why wouldn't we see at least one fish today give birth to a fish with elbows in 2006?

Three hundred fifty million years ago there were unfilled niches on land that would reward the invention of "elbows" with a new food source. Today, all those niches are filled. There probably are occasional mutations among coastal fishes that would point in the direction of walking on land. But the rewards aren't there so the mutation melts back into the oblivion from which it emerged.

47 posted on 04/09/2006 7:40:13 AM PDT by samtheman

I don't either. I am just likening polarity with human interactions and life in general. It is neat to see how opposites work in everything...

48 posted on 04/09/2006 7:40:18 AM PDT by dubie

well, it was #7 good v evil comment...

49 posted on 04/09/2006 7:41:12 AM PDT by dubie

This very argument is an example. There are 2 sides. One side against the other... One side believes one thing.. the other believes the opposite... I don't know that one can convince the other to change...

50 posted on 04/09/2006 7:44:34 AM PDT by dubie

I have personally observed evolution of a species in my lifetime. As a youth, I would hunt pheasants. We would always shoot them when they flew up from the corn rows. Now, they rarely fly. The fliers were killed, and could not propagate. That doesn't get you from running pheasants to fertile mules. The propagation of a a new species with a different chromosome counts requires two fertile parents. I have never seen a plausible description of how evolution can achieve this. Polyploidy might even get you from one, to two, to four, to eight, to sixteen, to thirty two chromosomes. It won't get you to seventeen.

51 posted on 04/09/2006 7:46:01 AM PDT by norwaypinesavage

To: PatrickHenry

PatrickHenry,

I was looking through your list of links the other day and I read one article on the existence of bits of genetic material placed into the genome by retroviruses, and how they mark species relatedness. Now I can't find it.

Would you please post a link to the article?

Thanks.

52 posted on 04/09/2006 7:46:33 AM PDT by samtheman

No problem. All opinions are equally valid in lala land.

53 posted on 04/09/2006 7:47:37 AM PDT by js1138 (~()):~)>)

To: norwaypinesavage

54 posted on 04/09/2006 7:47:42 AM PDT by furball4paws (Awful Offal)

No problem. All opinions are equally valid in lala land. I never considered equals. Thanks for the input... I guess equals void each other out?

55 posted on 04/09/2006 7:51:40 AM PDT by dubie

To: norwaypinesavage

Check out Przewalski's Horse.

56 posted on 04/09/2006 7:54:43 AM PDT by js1138 (~()):~)>)

To: dubie; bobdsmith

What is the opposite of ongoing change either by reproduction or nature?

57 posted on 04/09/2006 7:59:32 AM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)

To: norwaypinesavage

Most (nearly all, for those in Rio Linda) speciation takes place without changes in chromosome count. For those capable of reading, there are plenty of references on the topic of change in chromosome count. In the meantime, it is fairly easy to point out instances where variations in chromosome count do not result in infertility.

58 posted on 04/09/2006 7:59:48 AM PDT by js1138 (~()):~)>)

To: CarolinaGuitarman

""How else would we get to the chromosome diversity we have today?" You claimed that in order to observe speciation, we need to see a change in chromosome count. I asked why... now you move to a different question. Please stay on topic."

I answered the question by expanding it. Please answer the question(s).

59 posted on 04/09/2006 8:02:33 AM PDT by norwaypinesavage

To: norwaypinesavage

Can you read? You have received a number of answers to your question.

60 posted on 04/09/2006 8:05:47 AM PDT by js1138 (~()):~)>)

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