The Real ID Rebellion (National ID)

CNET News.co, ^ | 17 April 2006 | Declan McCullagh

[af_vet_rr]

When you were on active duty in the Air Force, didn't your Air Force base have BOTH a secured perimeter PLUS a "military ID card, please" policy?

As part of my official duties during my time in the AF I visited a few countries that were on the other side of the Iron Curtain - Although we were given carefully "guided" tours, we still saw people who were afraid of a government who could stop them at any time and demand their papers.

Putting that aside, you just hit upon one of the biggest problems with a national ID - we got a Congress and a President telling us that we need what will become a national ID, meanwhile they don't care about securing the border, or they do a half-assed job, and not only that, but they are basically granting amnesty to people who flout the border.

We already have laws on the books dealing with illegal aliens - unfortunately the government would rather impose its will upon you, I, and other law-abiding citizens, rather than harshly deal with the criminals and those who hire them.

[XJarhead]

However, all employers are supposed to check SS numbers when they hire someone, we already have that database online and ready for use.

No, we don't. Nice try, though.

If an employer checks someones SS number and it is already being used by Mary in Utah, then it can't belong to Joe in CA.

There is no employer direct access to the SSN system. Everything has to be done by snail mail, with government paper pushers doing the checking. You think that happens overnight? The lag time can be months.

Also, there is the additional problem of illegals obtaining the SSN's of legal residents or citizens who are not working. Because the cards are nothing more than pieces of paper, they are easily forged. And illegal immigrant Manual Labor becomes retired construction worker John Olszewski. The current SSN system is neither efficient nor effective enough to solve the problem of employers hiring illegals.

We already have laws on the books dealing with illegal aliens - unfortunately the government would rather impose its will upon you, I, and other law-abiding citizens, rather than harshly deal with the criminals and those who hire them.

The laws "currently on the books" require that anyone being deported be given certain legal protections, including a hearing. Do you have any clue how long it would take, under current law, to process 15 million illegals for deportation? And exactly how "harshly" are you going to deal with those "criminals"? Incarcerate them for long period of time? That ain't cheap. Deport them? That takes forever under the current law you claim needs only to be enforced.

But please answer this question for me, because I honestly don't understand your side of the argument. The laws "currently on the books" require everyone to give proof of citizenship or legal status at time of hiring. That requirement applies both to citizens and immigrants, both legal and illegal. That means that right now, you have to prove who you are and provide your SSN when hired. Isn't that the "show me your papers" requirement you already fear?

The only difference is that we want to ensure that the papers you are showing to verify your legal status are genuine, and not forgeries. How can any rational person not object to having to show an I.D. and SSN, but fight tooth and nail against updating those documents to make forgery more difficult? Damn, make your SSN card or other I.D. that you already are required to show an electronic swipe card. It instantly will run through computers, and the employer gets an answer back in 5 minutes as to whether or not you are illegal. That'd solve a huge number of problems. Not all, but the majority. How can any rational person interested in controlling illegal immigration oppose that? The means to check ILLEGAL ALIENS when they hire on is already at hand. We don't need a bunch of new laws and regulations gumming up the freedoms of US citizens.

No, it isn't, and I'm saying that as an employment lawyer who deals with this issue all the time. Other laws need to be changed if you really want to make it possible to enforce the immigration laws properly. The SSN verification process is decades out of date, and the documents are too easily forged. You need an integrated electronic database, and new SSN or other I.D. cards that employ modern technology.

[Polybius]

If you don't know what is wrong with a national ID then I can't explain it to you. It should be obvious to any freedom loving individual what is wrong with them.

Do you mean just as it should be "obvious" that the Nazi idea of the Autobahn (which President Eisenhower transplanted to the U.S. as the U.S. Interstate Highway system) is a threat to every freedom-loving individual?

The Autobahn was created in Germany so that the German Army could move rapidly an in massive numbers to anywhere in Germany the German leaders wanted it. Try doing that over the old U.S. 1 or over the old Route 66.

That, if anything, would be a Nazi idea that would "obviously" give a massive amount of power to a Government that was going to rule a people by force.

Other than knee-jerk emotionalism, what, exactly, makes building the Autobahn in America O.K. but using the National ID Card for certain purposes "obviously" a horror?

However, all employers are supposed to check SS numbers when they hire someone, we already have that database online and ready for use. Green cards should be tied to temporary SS numbers. If an employer checks someones SS number and it is already being used by Mary in Utah, then it can't belong to Joe in CA.

So, how's that fantastic system working out for us so far?

If that system worked better than a bucket of warm spit, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Leaving enforcement up to the very employers who make tons of money by hiring illegal aliens is like contracting out airport security to the Muslim Brotherhood.

A National ID card that is bar-coded (as all U.S. Passports are now required to be) takes enforcement of illegal hiring out of the hands of the illegal employers and puts it into the same U.S. Government computers who know exactly where you live and how much money you earned on your checking account at your local bank.

As it is right now, the U.S. Government already knows everything there is to know about you but knows nothing about the illegal alien that the painting contractor sent over to paint your house.

[Polybius]

When you were on active duty in the Air Force, didn't your Air Force base have BOTH a secured perimeter PLUS a "military ID card, please" policy?....Polybius

As part of my official duties during my time in the AF I visited a few countries that were on the other side of the Iron Curtain - Although we were given carefully "guided" tours, we still saw people who were afraid of a government who could stop them at any time and demand their papers. .....af_vet_rr

Just as the Eastern Europeans were afraid of Soviet tanks easily entering their city centers through wide boulevards.

See Post 83.

The idea of having wide open boulevards in modern cities was not originated for the purpose of having beautiful avenues in Paris or Berlin. That idea originated so that Government troops would have open fields of fire to control the citizenry with grapeshot and volleys when they got too uppity.

Just about anything in modern society, from your digital camera to the computer you are now typing on, can be abused by a totalitarian state.

That, however, does not mean that the U.S. should still be living in a country without an Interstate Highway system or without computers and with illegal aliens flooding the country just out of fear of how modern ideas and technolgy have been abused by totalitarian states.

Putting that aside, you just hit upon one of the biggest problems with a national ID - we got a Congress and a President telling us that we need what will become a national ID, meanwhile they don't care about securing the border, or they do a half-assed job, and not only that, but they are basically granting amnesty to people who flout the border.

As for politicians, we must remember that they are all politicions first and patriots (and sometimes traitors) second.

A politician would rather have his Mexican-American voters angry at an ID Card as to why illegal Cousin Pedro can no longer get a job than have him be angry at Congressman Blowhard.

[Wallace T.]

The problem with a national ID card is the same as with currency, radar guns, encryption, etc. The private marketplace, or in some cases, the black market, has and will find ways to defeat government technology. There is no fail safe system that will prevent forgery. With a requirement for a national ID card for establishing bank accounts, obtaining employment, receiving social benefits, etc., there will develop a black market such as already exists for drivers' licenses, Mexican conciliar cards, etc. Higher tech cards will only weed out the "mom and pop" forgers, much as the restrictions on cold medicines containing amphetamines are placing the trailer park "drug labs" out of business, or, in the Prohibition era, the Mafia pushed the backyard and basement bootleggers out of business. Organized crime will issue national ID cards that will fool the run of the mill employer, bank, and social services agency. They will be expensive, but the same illegals who pay $1,000 or $2,000 for "coyotes" to enable their border crossings will spend a similar amount of money for a good quality, fake national ID card. Keep in mind that organized crime has an effective wholesale and retail narcotics distribution in place, and has accomplished this for decades in spite of local, state, and Federal law enforcement.

Even in an area where the Feds hold most of the cards, as in the issuance of currency, the problem of counterfeiting is important enough to require frequent remakes of paper money. It will be exceptionally more difficult to control forgeries when hundreds of thousands of separate actors, rather than just the U.S. Treasury Department, review documentation. You might as well try to herd cats.

Additionally, I am also assuming that the Feds are willing to enforce laws prohibiting illegal immigration. The current Administration and its predecessor have been extremely lax in this area.

The national ID card is another big government failure waiting to happen.

[Polybius]

The problem with a national ID card is the same as with currency, radar guns, encryption, etc. The private marketplace, or in some cases, the black market, has and will find ways to defeat government technology. There is no fail safe system that will prevent forgery. With a requirement for a national ID card for establishing bank accounts, obtaining employment, receiving social benefits, etc., there will develop a black market such as already exists for drivers' licenses, Mexican conciliar cards, etc. Higher tech cards will only weed out the "mom and pop" forgers, much as the restrictions on cold medicines containing amphetamines are placing the trailer park "drug labs" out of business, or, in the Prohibition era, the Mafia pushed the backyard and basement bootleggers out of business. Organized crime will issue national ID cards that will fool the run of the mill employer, bank, and social services agency...............Wallace T.

In 1946, the vast majority of shopping in the U.S. was done by Americans exchanging printed pieces of paper with fancy engraving and portraits of U.S. Presidents on them.

Today, $2.4 Trillion (that's Trillion with a T) worth of purchases are made in the U.S. each year with cheap plastic cards with magnetic strips on the back.

You have just argued that the way that modern Americans pay for the vast majority of purchases in 2006, from the gas station to the supermarket, it not practical and therefore just a Buck Rogers pipe dream.

Unless the merchant has lost computer access and accepts a paper imprint of credit card on faith, the credit card does not work by fooling the merchant. The credit card works by convincing the database at American Express, or Bank of America or Chase Bank that it is legitimate, has not been canceled, has not been reported stolen, has not expired, has not gone over the credit limit, matches the name and number and security code, etc, etc, etc....................and the computer can do all of that in a microsecond.

A forger can easily forge a VISA card. However, that forged VISA card and a dollar won't buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks if the Chase Bank computer database rejects the VISA card when it is swiped.

Likewise, a forger can easily forge a National ID Card but that forged card will be worth squat when the U.S. Government computer database rejects that card when it is swiped.

In Post 82, XJarhead describes the current system of verifying identity for employment. It is a snail mail and paper-pushing system straight out of the Civil War era.

It's time to join the 21st Century.

As XJarhead said in Post 82, "How can any rational person not object to having to show an I.D. and SSN, but fight tooth and nail against updating those documents to make forgery more difficult? Damn, make your SSN card or other I.D. that you already are required to show an electronic swipe card. It instantly will run through computers, and the employer gets an answer back in 5 minutes as to whether or not you are illegal."

[ExGeeEye]

I carried a national ID card from the age of 12 to 18, and again from 21 to 35. I called it my "military ID"; the first version was as my father's dependent, and the second whilst on active duty.

At no time did I feel unduly repressed. Quite the contrary: when faced with the necessity of producing "two photo ID's" from time to time, 'twas a simple matter to whip out the AGO card and the (MI or VA or NC or TX) DL.

Furthermore, there are places and events where I want no one but citizens admitted...not even legal immigrants (polls, f'r'instance). To have to prove my citizenship before voting, and knowing that Jose and Xu and Bruce and Karl and Celeste had to do the same, would fill me with a confidence in the electoral system that I have not felt in many years. And that's just one example.

"Papers, please"... would have a welcome sound to me.

Especially the "please" part.

How am I wrong?

[Doe Eyes]

However, there will be an economic cost to the tourism industry.

From your post, I gather you're talking about Canada's tourist industry.

[Wallace T.]

The difference between credit and debit cards and national ID cards is that rejection of the former is based on three events: theft, expiration, or insufficient funds or credit. Anyone who has lost his credit or debit cards through theft, misplacement, or destruction has strong motivation to report the loss to the issuing bank. OTOH, there are 298 million Americans, an enormous data base from which forgery could be accomplished. If an individual went to establish a bank account or seek employment in Southern California and said his name was Juan Ortiz, born in 1977 in Long Beach, California, social security number 123-45-6789, when he was actually Diego Lopez, born in 1978 in San Luis Potosi, Mexico, how would a government data bank recognize he was not Juan Ortiz? Let's say the actual Juan Ortiz manages a grocery store and has a bank account. It is not illegal for him to take a second job or have a second bank account. Thus how will you distinguish the real Juan Ortiz from the other man?

A magnetic strip, a proven technology in the credit card industry, will not work. Perhaps biometric technology would be a more effective way to identify, but implementation of such a system would be expensive for both government and business. In addition, if history proves anything, it is that the private sector, including the black market, is effective in circumventing government issue technology.

In summary, I do not believe the national ID card will be an effective means of weeding out illegals even if we had an Administration willing to enforce laws established to prevent their entry into the U.S. or their seeking employment or social services.

[Polybius]

The difference between credit and debit cards and national ID cards is that rejection of the former is based on three events: theft, expiration, or insufficient funds or credit. Anyone who has lost his credit or debit cards through theft, misplacement, or destruction has strong motivation to report the loss to the issuing bank. OTOH, there are 298 million Americans, an enormous data base from which forgery could be accomplished. If an individual went to establish a bank account or seek employment in Southern California and said his name was Juan Ortiz, born in 1977 in Long Beach, California, social security number 123-45-6789, when he was actually Diego Lopez, born in 1978 in San Luis Potosi, Mexico, how would a government data bank recognize he was not Juan Ortiz? Let's say the actual Juan Ortiz manages a grocery store and has a bank account. It is not illegal for him to take a second job or have a second bank account. Thus how will you distinguish the real Juan Ortiz from the other man? A magnetic strip, a proven technology in the credit card industry, will not work. Perhaps biometric technology would be a more effective way to identify, but implementation of such a system would be expensive for both government and business. In addition, if history proves anything, it is that the private sector, including the black market, is effective in circumventing government issue technology. In summary, I do not believe the national ID card will be an effective means of weeding out illegals even if we had an Administration willing to enforce laws established to prevent their entry into the U.S. or their seeking employment or social services.

You are again arguing that technology now routinely used every day by 21st Century businesses and the U.S. Government can't possibly work.

How did we (and this is a true and actual example from my radiology department) know which patient needed the ultrasound and which patient needed the barium enema when those two patients in their 70's who just happened to have the same name right down to their middle initials and had the same doctor's office and showed up in our department within the same half hour?

We first were flagged to be extra careful when their patient files said: WARNING: DUPLICATE NAME....ANOTHER MARY S. DOE IS ALSO IN OUR FILES.

Even without that warning, our staff would still have asked each patient, "Are you Mary S. Doe?"......"What is your date of birth?"......."Look over this sheet of demographic information. Is all that information including address and phone number correct?"

After all that, we still phoned their doctor's office to confirm that THEY had not gotten the two Mary S. Doe's mixed up when the orders were written and the individual entries in each medical chart was consulted and the information then double-checked by asking the patient why they had visited their doctor.

After we were convinced that we knew exactly who each patient was, we proceeded with the exams.

When it matters, you do not simply match three variables such as first and last names and middle initial. You check as many variables as it takes to get the job done.

We did all that checking with flesh and blood department staff and it took a while to do.

Computers, however, can double-check thousands of variables and, in a microsecond, identify data that raises suspicion.

Bar-coded National ID Cards, just as is the case with the now required bar-coded U.S. Passports, would be issued by the U.S. Government after verification that Wallace T. who was born on this date, in that city in that State and who has SSN 987-65-4321, and whose mother's maiden name was Sally Morgan, and who......etc., etc., etc., ....... is actually a U.S. citizen.

As your information database builds up over the years, the computers that know where to send your IRS forms, your place of employment, you drivers license numbers, your phone numbers, etc., etc., etc. would have be sharing that information with the National ID Card computer which can, in a microsecond, realize that some alleged "Wallace T." in San Diego is trying to steal your identity with a new bank account by claiming your name and SSN but claiming a different address and phone number and a different mother's maiden name on the information sheet the bank just sent electronically to the National ID Card computer.

The same National Id Card computer can realize that some other alleged "Wallace T." is trying to steal your identity when he is applying for a part-time job in San Diego but has no clue where you work now, where you worked before and what your mother's maiden name was.

Forging a National ID Card is child's play.

Getting the forged ID Card and the information an identity thief provides to the bank and employer to send electronically to the National ID Card computer to match that information with your database in the National ID Card computer is almost impossible unless that identity thief takes you down to the bank with a gun to your head so that YOU can fill in all the required application information for the fake bank account he wants.

[ctdonath2]

"Papers, please"... would have a welcome sound to me. Especially the "please" part. How am I wrong?

Historically, a society that accepts such a requirement soon goes very bad. 1930's German is a prime example.

Thing is, the laws and bureacracy end up replacing YOU with your ID. You can't do anything without your ID; conversely, anyone with your ID (suitably altered) is officially you. When "papers, please" becomes the norm, you can't work, drive, travel, buy, sell, rent, shop, communicate, etc. without ID. Every time you are required to flash your ID, your activity is recorded and subject to scrutiny. The ID itself is provided - and can be revoked - on the whim of the bureaucrats involved ... that means YOU can be revoked by a bureaucrat. Found lacking an ID on demand, governments quickly turn to throwing you in a cage until they can verify your identity and create a new ID for you - which they will not be in a hurry to do. "Guilty until proven innocent" becomes the norm.

It is all very contrary to the American way, by giving ever greater power to government and demeaning citizens in the process.

There are certainly times when an ID is appropriate. That ID should then be unique to the situation, and not required elsewhere. If you want to vote, have a Voter ID card as a matter of making that system viable - but don't require that card be used elsewhere. A SSN card is fine for participation in the Social Security pyramid scheme ... but should not be required for any other purpose.

Far too often the reason for a National ID has much more to do with advancing socialism. Calls for a National ID to fight illegal immigration is usually based on the problem of illegal immigrants getting financial handouts (or other bread-and-circuses, rob-peter-to-pay-paul unconstitutional actions) which the government should not be doing anyway.

Having to show my driver's license to rent an apartment, or give SSN to buy a pistol or open a bank account, etc. is absurd and contrary to the purpose of the ID used. Hijacking the driver's license to make a National ID is subversive. Soon you will need that National ID to do darn near anything, and lacking it will mean detainment until it is found or you are otherwise identified.

Outside of very narrow uses of specialized IDs, if my identity must be confirmed I do have a passport - but such use should only be in unusual cases where I have time to retrieve it. On the whole, an American citizen should be able to live comfortably in the USA without any ID. One's ID should be himself; only rarely should paper-type identification be consistent across multiple unrelated applications.

Pervasively requiring ID in a society destroys the individual, as one's social self becomes a piece of paper granted - and revoked - at the whim of a bureaucrat.

[ctdonath2]

Just ran across this elsewhere:

Laws don't make things legal, the lack of law does. Laws make things illegal.

National IDs are the result of law. They do what they do by making things illegal. Do you really want a small piece of paper, issued by a faceless bureaucrat, adding more illegality to pretty much everything? May be good for a few cases, but ... pervasively?

[ExGeeEye]

To repeat in simple:

I want the illegal presence of certain people made unmistakeably obvious, and therefore I want to have to prove myself a citizen.

Frequently

and

Pervasively.

[ctdonath2]

So if I can't prove myself a citizen frequently and pervasively, you'll do ... what? Throw me in jail until my identity can be established? because I don't have a bureaucratically-produced piece of paper?

You want my papers, you get a search warrant. I don't know what country you're in, but in mine we follow something called the 4th Amendment to the Constitution.

You want the illegal presence of certain people made obvious? how about eliminating their incentive to be here? Stop handing out money to them (confiscated from me), and let employers and employees work out their mutually-fair wages (get rid of minimum wage).

Innocent until proven guilty, bub. I'm me, not a piece of paper. Just because you don't have an ID on you for my satisfaction doesn't mean you should be immediately suspect, jailed, and deported.

A National ID is a license to exist. Do you REALLY want to give the government that power? I don't - and will go to the wall over it.

[sweetliberty]

"Just out of curiousity, how do you police illegal immigration without some form of I.D.?"

Well, a good start would be to run in anybody for closer scrutiny who can't speak English and who can't produce a passport or a work Visa. They don't have any problems finding out when Americans have phony ID. Chances are, people who speak very fluent English, particularly if they're black or white and don't speak with foreign accent, are not going to be illegal aliens. It would also be a good standard to impose on employers in their hiring practices, too.

The solution is not to tag Americans like so many cattle. We act so offended by the notion of asking for "papers" on illegals for the purpose of identifying them, but seem to have no such distaste for doing it to Americans. What is wrong with this picture?

[sweetliberty]

"if the states bend over for the feds"

The states have been bending over for the feds since the end of the Civil War. The feds abolished one kind of slavery and, over time, have instituted another. Its chains are forged of federal money. The states have become so dependent on federal money they wouldn't dare to challenge anything that would put them at risk of losing it.

[sweetliberty]

"Many of those existing forms of I.D.'s are easily forged. Social Security cards even more easily. Without an integrated database, an employer can request and receive valid I.D. information from an illegal, only to find out weeks or even months later that it was bogus."

There are systems in place already for verifying the validity of driver's licenses and social security numbers. A number of employers use them. The problem is that for employers who hire illegals, and there is not a doubt in my mind that they know they are illegals, there is no incentive for them to verify documents provided by their illegal applicants. If they did, they would no longer be able to claim ignorance which, for now, is serving them well.

The solution is not to put more restrictions on Americans, but on employers in their hiring practives. Of course, the whole argument is a red herring. National ID isn't about controlling illegals. It is about tracking and controlling Americans. This is just another excuse to implement a program the federal government has drooled over for decades, just waiting until they could find an excuse that enough Americans would buy into.

[Tench_Coxe]

"Pervasively requiring ID in a society destroys the individual, as one's social self becomes a piece of paper granted - and revoked - at the whim of a bureaucrat."

You know, for all the so-called 'conservatives' who like this idea, here's a little blurb I remember:

"I wish to remind Republicans that this idea first surfaced in a Reagan cabinet meeting in 1981. Then Attorney General William French Smith argued that a perfectly harmless i.d. card system would be necessary to reduce illegal immigration. A second cabinet member asked why not tattoo a number on each American's forearm. According to Martin Anderson, the White House domestic policy adviser at the time, Reagan blurted out: "My god, that's the mark of the beast." Anderson reports "that was the end of the national identification card" during the Reagan years. But bad ideas never die in Washington; they wait for another day."

Source here (and elsewhere): National ID

[sweetliberty]

"On one hand, we have the freedom not to "show our papers" on demand."

Oh really? Try telling that to a cop when he pulls over the car in which you are a passenger. Or tell it to the utility company when you go to have your power turned on. Tell it to the school when you go to enroll your child...unless, of course, you're an illegal, in which case, no such papers are required.

Oh sure, you can say that you're not required to provide "papers." Just do without the services. That isn't realistic. Your children are required by law to be in school...unless, of course, you're illegal, in which case they are not compelled by law, but somehow have an inalienable "right" to use our tax dollars to educate their children so they can be competitive for American jobs get "jobs that Americans won't do."

[inquest]

"On one hand, we have the freedom not to "show our papers" on demand."

Oh really? Try telling that to a cop when he pulls over the car in which you are a passenger.

I've never heard of this. What happens if you simply don't have an ID on you when you're just a passenger? I know of no law that says you're required to.