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It’s This Bad [Outsanding from Dalrymple on England's descent into liberal hell]
City Journal ^ | 4/18/2006 | Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 04/19/2006 5:32:55 PM PDT by Uncledave

It’s This Bad: Theodore Dalrymple

Returning briefly to England from France for a speaking engagement, I bought three of the major dailies to catch up on the latest developments in my native land. The impression they gave was of a country in the grip of a thoroughgoing moral frivolity. In a strange inversion of proper priorities, important matters are taken lightly and trivial ones taken seriously.

This is not the charming or uplifting frivolity of Feydeau’s farces or Oscar Wilde’s comedies; it is the frivolity of real decadence, bespeaking a profound failure of nerve bound to have disastrous consequences for the country’s quality of life. The newspapers portrayed frivolity without gaiety and earnestness without seriousness—a most unattractive combination.

Of the two instances of serious matters taken with levity, the first concerned a 42-year-old barrister, Peter Wareing, attacked in the street while walking home from a barbecue with two friends, a man and a woman. They passed a group of seven teenagers who had been drinking heavily, one of whom, a girl, complained that the barrister and his friends were “staring” at them. Nowadays, English youth of aggressive disposition and porcelain-fragile ego regard such alleged staring as a justified casus belli.

The girl attacked the woman in the other party. When Wareing and his male friend tried to separate them, two of the youths, aged 18 and 16, in turn attacked them. They hit the barrister’s friend into some bushes, injuring him slightly, and then knocked the barrister to the ground, knocking him down a second time after he had struggled to his feet. This second time, his head hit the ground, injuring his brain severely. He was unconscious and on life support for two months afterward. At first, his face was so disfigured that his three children were not allowed to see him.

The doctors told his wife, a nurse, that he was unlikely to survive, and she prepared the children for their father’s death. She wrote in a journal that she kept as she sat by his bed, “Very scary feeling that all his natural life is gone.” Nevertheless, he made an unexpected, though partial, recovery. His memory remains impaired, as does his speech; he may never be able to resume his legal career fully. It is possible that his income will be much lower for the rest of his life than it would otherwise have been, to the great disadvantage of his wife and children.

One of the two assailants, Daniel Hayward, demonstrated that he had learned nothing—at least, nothing of any comfort to the public—after he had ruined the barrister’s life. While awaiting trial on bail, he attacked the landlord of a pub and punched him in the face, for which he received a sentence of 21 days in prison.

Before passing sentence for the attack on Wareing, the judge was eloquent in his condemnation of the two youths. “You were looking for trouble and prepared to use any excuse to visit violence on anyone you came by. It is the callousness of this that is so chilling. . . . You do not seem to care that others have been blighted by your gratuitous violence.”

You might have thought that this was a prelude to the passing of a very long prison sentence on the two youths. If so, however, you would be entirely mistaken. Both received sentences of 18 months, with an automatic nine-month remission, more or less as of right. In other words, they would serve nine months in prison for having destroyed the health and career of a completely innocent man, caused his wife untold suffering, and deprived three young children of a normal father. One of the perpetrators, too, had shown a complete lack of remorse for what he had done and an inclination to repeat it.

Even at so young an age, nine months is not a very long time. Moreover, when I recall that for youths like these a prison sentence is likely to be a badge of honor rather than a disgrace, I cannot but conclude that the British state is either utterly indifferent to or incapable of the one task that inescapably belongs to it: preserving the peace and ensuring that its citizens may go about their lawful business in safety. It does not know how to deter, prevent, or punish. The remarks of the policeman in charge of the case were not encouraging. He said afterward that he hoped that “the sentences . . . send a clear warning to people who think it is acceptable to consume large quantities of alcohol, then assault members of the public in unprovoked attacks.” If the law supposes that, as Mr. Bumble said in Oliver Twist, “the law is a ass—a idiot.”

As for Peter Wareing, even in his brain-damaged state, he had a better appreciation of things. He was evidently a man of some spirit: having been a salesman, he decided to study for the law, supported himself at law school by a variety of manual jobs, and qualified at the bar at the age of 40. The extent of his recovery astounded his neurosurgeon, who attributed it to Wareing’s determination and “bloody-mindedness.” He is avid to get back to work, but the contrast between the nominal 18-month sentence for his attackers and his own “life sentence,” as he called it, of struggle against disability is not lost on him. “If there were real justice,” he said, “they would have gone to prison for life.” Could any compassionate person disagree?

Perhaps the final insult is that the state is paying for him to have psychotherapy to suppress his anger. “I have this rage inside me for the people who did this,” he said. “I truly hate them.” Having failed in its primary duty, the state then treats the rage naturally consequent upon this failure as pathological, in need of therapy. On reading Peter Wareing’s story, ordinary, decent citizens will themselves feel a sense of impotent rage, despair, betrayal, and abandonment similar to his. Do we all need psychotherapy?

A second case similarly illustrates the refusal of the British state to take the lives of its citizens seriously. An engineer—Philip Carroll, the father of four—was tinkering with his car outside his home. Four drunken youths sat on a wall on his property, and he asked them to leave. They argued with him, and one of them threw a stone at his car. He chased this youth and caught him, but between 20 and 40 more youths loitering drunkenly nearby rallied round, and one 15-year-old hit the engineer to the ground, where he too banged his head and received severe brain damage. Unconscious for 18 days, he needed three operations to survive; and now he too has an impaired memory and might never work again.

According to his parents, the culprit, Michael Kuba-Kuba, felt deeply ashamed of what he had done, but this did not in the least prevent him during the trial from claiming (unsuccessfully, in the event) that he had been acting in self-defense. This does not sound like genuine shame to me but rather an attempt to get away with it. Before passing sentence, the judge said: “I have to try to ensure that the courts will treat incidents like this with great severity, to send out a message to other young people that violence is not acceptable.”

Another prelude, you might think, to a stiff sentence—but again you would be wrong. The young man got 12 months, of which he will serve six. Six months for the active life of a man—for having caused 30 or 40 years of disability, as well as incalculable suffering to the disabled man’s family! It is not difficult to imagine Kuba-Kuba returning from prison to a hero’s welcome, because he had simultaneously gotten away with near-murder and survived the rite of passage that imprisonment now represents. The message the judge sent out to other young people, no doubt unintentionally, was that youths may destroy other people’s lives with virtual impunity, for the British state does not care in the least about protecting them or deterring such crimes.

Two aspects of the case went unexamined in the newspapers. The first was that Kuba-Kuba’s parents were the owners of a grocery store specializing in African foods, and were deeply religious. The young man doubtless did not grow up in abject poverty, then; nor would he have derived his readiness for violence from anything his parents might have taught him.

The second was that Kuba-Kuba was a talented athlete, apparently of Olympic standard. He was a promising soccer player, so promising that several major teams were seriously interested in recruiting him. If, as seemed likely, he had made the grade, he would have become a multimillionaire by his early twenties, earning more in a year than most people in a lifetime. Lack of economic prospects and the frustration it entails can hardly explain a propensity to violence in his case, therefore.

We must look elsewhere for the source of his violent conduct. Possibly he was born a sport of nature, a creature biologically destined to violence—no doubt there are such cases. But far more likely was that an aggressive popular culture that glorifies egotistical impulsivity and denigrates self-control influenced him. Although his parents presented him, in their statements, as a paragon of virtue, he already had a conviction for theft, and he clearly hung about with teenagers who drank a lot and made a nuisance of themselves. Carroll confronted the youth who threw the stone precisely because he was exasperated by the unruly behavior that prevailed in his neighborhood, undeterred and unpunished by the state. A senior policeman said after the attack, “We have gangs of young people hanging around on street corners being abusive, intimidating and causing trouble. . . . They don’t give a damn about the police or the criminal justice system.”

And who can blame them? What deterrent, punishment, vengeance, or protection for society is six months in prison for having injured a man so badly that he did not recognize his wife or children for several months afterward, that he now has poor eyesight, has lost his sense of smell and taste, has to wear a brace on one foot and a hard hat to protect his skull, and says of himself, “I just have no interest in anything or anyone”—having previously been a highly successful man?

Having seen how the British state takes the serious lightly, let us now see how it takes the trivial seriously.

The newspapers reported the case of an Oxford student who, slightly drunk after celebrating the end of his exams, approached a mounted policeman. “Excuse me,” said the young man to the policeman, “do you realize your horse is gay?”

This was not a very witty remark, but it was hardly filled with deep malice either. It was, perhaps, a manifestation of the youthful silliness of which most of us have been guilty in our time. And Oxford was once a city in which drunken students often played, and were even expected to play, pranks on the police, such as knocking off their helmets.

The policeman did not think the student’s remark was innocent, however. He called two squad cars to his aid, and, in a city in which it is notoriously difficult to interest the police in so trivial a matter as robbery or burglary, they arrived almost at once. Apparently, the mounted policeman thought—if thought is quite the word I seek—that the young man’s remark was likely to “cause harassment, alarm or distress.” He was arrested and charged under the Public Order Act for having made a “homophobic remark.”

The young man spent a night in jail. Brought before the magistrates the following day, he was fined $140, which he refused to pay. The police then sent the case to the equivalent of the district attorney, who brought the student before the courts again but had to admit that there was not enough evidence to prove that his conduct had been disorderly.

The degree to which political correctness has addled British consciousness, like a computer virus, and destroyed all our traditional attachment to liberty, is illustrated by the words of one of the student’s friends who witnessed the incident. “[His] comments were . . . in jest,” he said. “It was very clear that they were not homophobic.” In other words, the friend accepted the premise that certain remarks, well short of incitement to commit violence or any actual crime—words that merely expressed an unpopular or intolerant point of view—would have constituted reasonable grounds for arrest. One consequence of the liberal intelligentsia’s long march through the institutions is the acceptance of the category of Thoughtcrime. On the other hand, political correctness permits genuine incitement to murder—such as the behead those who insult islam placards carried by Muslim demonstrators in London four months after the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in a Danish newspaper—to go completely unpunished. Other people, other customs.

Goodness knows how much time of how many people this episode in Oxford had wasted, and at what cost to the taxpayer—all in a country with the highest rate of crime (that is to say, of real crime) in the Western world. I could not help comparing the alacrity with which the police dealt with the “homophobic” remark with their indifference to an act of arson my wife witnessed shortly before we left England.

She noticed some youths setting fire to the contents of a dumpster just outside our house, a fire that could easily have spread to cars parked nearby. She called the police.

“What do you expect us to do about it?” they asked.

“I expect you to come and arrest them,” she said.

The police regarded this as a bizarre and unreasonable expectation. They refused point-blank to send anyone. Of course, if they had promised to make every effort to come quickly but had arrived too late, or even not at all, my wife would have understood and been satisfied. But she was not satisfied with the idea that youths could set dangerous fires without arousing even the minimal interest of the police. Surely, some or all of the youths would conclude that they could do anything they liked, and move on to more serious crimes.

My wife then insisted that the police should at least place the crime on their records. Again, they refused. She remonstrated with them at length, and at considerable cost to her equanimity. At last, and with the greatest reluctance, they recorded the crime and gave her a reference number for it.

This was not the end of the matter. About 15 minutes later, a more senior policeman telephoned to upbraid her and tell her she had been wasting police time with her insistence on satisfaction in so trivial a matter. The police, apparently, had more important things to do than suppress arson. Goodness knows what homophobic remarks were being made while the youths were merely setting a fire that could have spread, and in the process learning that they could do so with impunity.

It is not difficult to guess the reason for the senior policeman’s anger. My wife had forced his men to record a crime that they had no intention whatever of even trying to solve (though, with due expedition, it was eminently soluble), and this record in turn meant the introduction of an unwanted breath of reality into the bogus statistics, the manufacture of which is now every British senior policeman’s principal task—with the sole exception of enforcing the dictates of political correctness, thereby to head off the criticism levied at them for many decades by the liberal Left—not always without an element of justification. Proving their purity of heart is now more important to them than securing the safety of our streets: and thus Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

Another story in the newspaper then caught my eye: the government wanted to ban smoking in British prisons.

At first sight, this might seem like a serious rather than a frivolous idea. More than nine-tenths of prisoners smoke, and, if they continue to do so, about a half of them will die prematurely as a result. The evidence that smoking is bad for the health has long since been overwhelming and incontrovertible. Therefore, the government could reasonably claim that the proposed ban was evidence of its solicitude for the welfare of the most despised of all sections of society, prisoners. And after all, what could be more serious, less frivolous, than saving lives, or trying to do so?

In general, I am not sentimental about the rights of prisoners. I don’t think the proposed ban infringes any of their rights; but it seems to me that there are plenty of reasons for treating prisoners decently and humanely other than the observance of their supposed rights. Decency and humanity are goods in themselves, after all. The proposed ban was not only hypocritical but gratuitously cruel and inhumane, and likely to prove ineffective into the bargain.

But it would be wrong even if effective.

Smoking is not illegal in Britain, and the government derives large revenues from the consumption of tobacco, indeed far larger than the profits of the tobacco companies. It uses these revenues not to lessen the taxes of non-smokers but merely as one among many other sources of revenue. Although high taxation on tobacco does discourage smoking, that is not, and never was, its primary aim.

At bottom, the proposal looks like the arbitrary bullying of a defenseless population in a fit of Pecksniffian moral enthusiasm. It is to deprive that population of a small privilege long accepted by custom and usage. And, of course, the moral enthusiasts of the government will not bear the practical cost of enforcing the ban; the prison wardens will. The proposal is an example

of the soft and creeping totalitarianism that comes with unctuous offers of benefits and avowals of purity of intention, rather than the boot-in-the-face variety of Orwell’s description. It is the insinuation of the government into the nooks and crannies of everyday life, on the pretext that people are incapable of deciding anything for themselves. Everyone is a child for whom the government is in permanent loco parentis (except children, of course, who can consent to sex at age 16 and are to be given the vote at the same age, if Chancellor Brown has his way).

The newspapers confirmed what I had long perceived before I left Britain: that the zeitgeist of the country is now one of sentimental moralizing combined with the utmost cynicism, where the government’s pretended concern for the public welfare coexists with the most elementary dereliction of duty. There is an absence of any kind of idealism that is a necessary precondition of probity, so that bad faith prevails almost everywhere. The government sees itself as an engineer of souls (to use the phrase so eloquently coined by Stalin with regard to writers who, of course, were expected to mold Homo Sovieticus by the power of their words). Government thus concerns itself with what people think, feel, and say—as well as with trying to change their freely chosen habits—rather than with performing its one inescapable duty: that of preserving the peace and ensuring that citizens may go about their lawful business in confidence and safety. It is more concerned that young men should not smoke cigarettes in prison or make silly jokes to policemen than that they should not attack and permanently maim their elders and betters.

One definition of decadence is the concentration on the gratifyingly imaginary to the disregard of the disconcertingly real. No one who knows Britain could doubt that it has very serious problems—economic, social, and cultural. Its public services—which already consume a vast proportion of the national wealth—are not only inefficient but completely beyond amelioration by the expenditure of yet more money. Its population is abysmally educated, to the extent that in a few more years Britain will not even have a well-educated elite. An often cynical and criminally minded population has been indoctrinated with shallow and gimcrack notions—for example, about social justice—that render it singularly unfit to compete in an increasingly competitive world. Not coincidentally, Britain has serious economic problems, even if the government has managed so far—in the eyes of the world, at least—to paper over the cracks. Unpleasant realities cannot be indefinitely disguised or conjured away, however.

Therefore I have removed myself: not that I imagine things are much better, only slightly different, in France. But one does not feel the defects of a foreign country in quite the same lacerating way as the defects of one’s native land; they are more an object of amused, detached interest than of personal despair.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: anthonydaniels; dalrymple; england; london; theodoredalrymple; uk
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To: NZerFromHK
LOL what a surprise you on a Britain is going to hell on ahand cart thread.

Your two favorite roles Brit bashing and American ass kissing

61 posted on 04/20/2006 7:00:15 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave

You can blame a lot of the problems in England (and elsewhere across the pond) on hip-hop culture. I was deeply depressed last time in London over how much it has filtered into their youth society.

Gangsta machoism, glorification of stupidity, foul-mouthed nihilism, abuse and degradation of women... all the lovely baggage that comes along with it. A cancer, plain and simple.


62 posted on 04/20/2006 7:01:10 AM PDT by Jhensy
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To: tonycavanagh

By saying "shell" I'm certainly hyperbolizing. But I have to say the city felt quite different to me in ways I didn't like. Friends of mine who live there tell me the same thing - many wanting to leave. They talk to me of immigration woes, increased drug use (in public view, that is), more aggressive youth, apathy of various public services, political correctness gone awry (eg Livingston's lily-livered comments after the subway bombing)

I do have a fond place in my heart for the Brits and England. Marvelous people and country. I've even kept up my overseas Viz subscription!


63 posted on 04/20/2006 7:02:36 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: RepoGirl
Hi Repo, if you and your Husband are still looking for a great place to visit I highly recommend Prague. My wife and I went last year and had a really great time.
64 posted on 04/20/2006 7:06:25 AM PDT by The Toll
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To: Uncledave
re :They talk to me of immigration woes, increased drug use (in public view, that is), more aggressive youth, apathy of various public services, political correctness gone awry (eg Livingston's lily-livered comments after the subway bombing) .

The problem is that these are subjects that are discussed more in the papers but are they worse than before.

Every one has a political correctness story that has happened to someone else not them.

More aggressive youth, I don't think they are any more aggressive than when I was there age.

Rowdy and noisy I agree but so were we.

And most youth are still polite, its easy to paint them all with the same brush.

There are more immigrants that I will agree. My Mums local pub is full of Poles and Russians.

As for Ken Livingstone he has always been mealy mouthed, he was a IRA supporter in the 70s/80s when we were fighting them.

We have a problem with drugs, although I don't think its a problem since those who went to raves and dropped pills were not so violent, in fact drug taking is dropping and drinking is on the up.

Thats the new problem binge drinking and the violence that goes with it.

As an aside when I was serving in West Germany, I saw the green book American soldiers were issued with, and they were warned about the drunken aggressive and violent nature of the British sqaddy and this was in the early 80s.

Where did you go unie.

65 posted on 04/20/2006 7:13:06 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: The Toll; RepoGirl
re :Hi Repo, if you and your Husband are still looking for a great place to visit I highly recommend Prague. My wife and I went last year and had a really great time.

LOL although its becoming a favorite place for young aggressive British male binge drinkers.

66 posted on 04/20/2006 7:14:25 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave
I agree that this is a fine article, brilliant in it's point and writing.

What I did not see was any reference to morals and where morals come from. Brace yourselves....God.

How do expect anyone to know squat about principal, morality, civilized conduct or anything resembling those qualities when there is a focus on humanism? From their parents? How were they raised?

It would appear that most of Britain turned their backs on religion, and that the Church of England, once a rock, has dissolved into a pile of PC silliness.

It's sad, I have been to England many times, though not lately. And on an even more sad note, we are seeing the same thing here, and it will get worse. The problem is moral bankruptcy. It will not be solved by courts, or police or politicians.
67 posted on 04/20/2006 7:28:56 AM PDT by alarm rider (Irritating leftists as often as is humanly possible....)
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To: tonycavanagh
As a Londoner i have to say that is complete and utter bollox, London is a lot smarter and richer now, The whole of the Thames are for a start.

I have to agree. What has happened to the Docks is nothing short of amazing.

You can't deny, however, that crime is on the increase. And would be more so, if the statistics weren't crook. I have a friend who used to be a copper out in Buckinghamshire, and according to thim they are routinely cooking the books to make their statistics more palatable to the public.

-ccm

68 posted on 04/20/2006 7:48:45 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order)
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To: tonycavanagh

I went to school there through Boston Univ which had (probably is still there) a small outpost they ran out of a brownstone in Kensington, near the Glouster St stop.

Following classes, students had an internship. I had mine with IBM at their South Bank office. The group I worked with sold into the petrochem industry and many of their clients were US energy firms: esso, texaco, etc. The IBM lads were invited to participate in their clients' softball league (it's like baseball) and as the only American on the team most of my interneship was spent teaching them how to play.

I remember telling people all day, "No, running after you hit the ball is NOT optional!" or "No, you can't bounce the ball towards the batter!" or "Take of those silly Jumpers!".


69 posted on 04/20/2006 7:54:24 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: tonycavanagh
If he had shot them, in his house and claimed that they had surprised him, he would probably of got away with it.

"Probably" is the word I have trouble with.

If you don't have the right to defend yourself in your own house against an intruder, your other rights aren't worth very much.

Where I live, the law is that you have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself or an innocent victim against an attacker who intends death or great bodily harm. The law further presumes that an intruder inside your house intends death or great bodily harm, no matter what he does.

70 posted on 04/20/2006 7:55:49 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: tonycavanagh

Ha Ha, I suppose that's true, I forgot about that part. There were quite a few, however they stayed around the main pub crawl at night and were very pleasant around sunset when they were looking for breakfast.


71 posted on 04/20/2006 8:09:06 AM PDT by The Toll
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To: Campion
I said probably as I am not a lawyer, but this will explain the law in Britain http://cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_d.html.

A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

self-defence; or

defence of another; or

defence of property; or

prevention of crime; or

lawful arrest.

In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

was the use of force justified in the circumstances, i.e. was there a need for any force at all? and

was the force used excessive in the circumstances? .

Hope the link helps

72 posted on 04/20/2006 8:31:55 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave; albertp; Allosaurs_r_us; Abram; Americanwolfsbrother; AlexandriaDuke; Americanwolf; ...
A good article on twisted government values and incentives.





Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
73 posted on 04/20/2006 8:32:11 AM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/israel_palestine_conflict.htm)
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To: Uncledave
re ;Take of those silly Jumpers!".

LOL wearing or wrapped round the shoulders preppy style.

As an aside I think Viz has gone down hill a bit, but my faveirite is still Modern parents, Student Grant, Jack Silver Spoilt bstard and Art Critics

74 posted on 04/20/2006 8:34:18 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: tonycavanagh

Viz does put a noticeable effort in trying to bring in new characters. I suppose there's only so many ways Biffa can get his "head kicked reet in" or San and Tray can stuff their faces and orifices.

I like the new guy who draws Harry Bestial and Drunken Bakers. It's amusingly cynical, dry, abstract, creepy.

Modern Parents and Student "Gwant" indeed take great stabs at the culture. I'd add Millie Tant to that list.


75 posted on 04/20/2006 8:49:43 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: tonycavanagh

Sorry.
If you have been robbed repeatedly, then shooting the @$$holes is just a little common-sense prevention. Since the law will do nothing about them, Martin would be at their mercy when they decided to return. Martin was engaged in self-defense against potentially violent invaders who repeated invaded his home.
The fact they fearlessly invaded his home while he was there is, by itself, proof that he was justified.


76 posted on 04/20/2006 8:52:11 AM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: tonycavanagh
Hi Tony, thanks for your excellent post.

I was there from February to June of 1990. I remember a prison riot, and then I had friends who got accidentally caught up in the Poll Tax riots in Piccadilly (May '90?). When did the miners strikes, race riots and Notting Hill riots take place?

You're very correct, no time is ever perfect, and I admit even then, there were some rough patches. Our dorms were right in Bloomsbury, on Gower Street, and even in such a ritzy neighborhood, there were some nasty elements. The IRA was very active at that time--so we were always on the lookout for suspicious packages in pubs, on the tube, etc. In fact, a year later, my friend was just a street over when a bomb took out a couple of store fronts. When I call it a golden age, I admit that a lot of my perception of London is colored with that rosey glow of youth.

Although, being a kid raised in a scruffy little Florida beach town, I was struck at how incredibly polite people were in the UK. I'd spent considerable time before going to London in NYC and Philly, so when I came to the UK--I was flabbergasted at how formal (which I liked) and polite so many Britons were, from bricklayers to Barristers. Now, it may have been because, at the time (sigh...) I was a cute twenty-something coed, but I always found complete strangers to be helpful and friendly.

And going out into the country, to the small towns, was such an incredible treat. I can't remember what town we'd gone to--but I spent several hours talking about Tobey jugs (yeah, I know they're goofy...) with a pub owner. I found England to be incredibly welcoming.

From the mid-90s onward, I noticed the little niceties had started eroding. I used to get a giggle out of hearing people say, "Sorry..." when they'd invade your personal space on the Tube (again, I was used to much more brusque behavior). But, as the decade progressed, I'd encounter ruder and ruder behavior on my trips to the city. And, yes, while we have them in the states, the white kids pretending to be hard core 'gangsta rap' criminals with their gold chains and track suits just depressed me when I encountered them in the UK.

Although, I was really impressed with how they'd fixed up the areas south of the Thames (like around the museum of Science and Industry, the now-closed MOMI, etc.) and up around Islington.

I hope I am wrong, and that London still has that 'spark'. It holds such a special place in my heart. Now... if you tell me where I can find a decent pint of Websters Bitters, I'll be forever greatful.

77 posted on 04/20/2006 1:13:41 PM PDT by RepoGirl ("That boy just ain't right..." Hank Hill)
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To: The Toll

We're actually really interested in eastern europe these days. I've heard great things about Prague, but Poland as well.


78 posted on 04/20/2006 1:16:00 PM PDT by RepoGirl ("That boy just ain't right..." Hank Hill)
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To: Little Ray
re :If you have been robbed repeatedly, then shooting the @$$holes is just a little common-sense prevention.

LOL you know and I know that wont wash in a court of law in America never mind Britain, it would be nice if it could, taking them out before or after they commited a crime, but then we would not need the police and courts, and while you (maybe) and I would not abuse the system, there are many who would.

The problem is the law is the law and while criminals don't mind breaking the law that is what makes them criminals.

What we need is a tougher sentencing structure.

79 posted on 04/23/2006 11:44:07 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: RepoGirl
LOL I agree, about the more aggressive behavior on the tube as a tube traveler, may have something to do with more sardines, I mean commuters jammed into the tubes, with stoppages in between tunnels.

(Blush) I admit I get more aggressive on the journey to work, just shattered on the way home.

Lager drinker myself, but will ask around.

Cheers Tony

80 posted on 04/23/2006 11:47:13 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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