Why a jihad in Jammu-Kashmir?

Jihadwatch.org ^ | Hugh Fitzgerald

[Raj13008]

Jammu-Kashmir is part of India. It is not part of Pakistan. And the notion that any part of India in which there is to be found a Muslim-majority population is one where therefore Muslim claims have legitimacy is absurd.

Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses the jihad in Jammu and Kashmir, and on the subcontinent in general:

Why do Muslim terrorists attack in Jammu-Kashmir? Because they can. The Muslim claim to Kashmir differs from their claim to all of India (or for that matter to Spain (Al-Andalus), to Israel, to Sicily, to the Balkans, to Bulgaria, to Rumania, to Hungary, and to all the areas once dominated by Muslims) only in the ability to push that claim. Of course, in the jihadist view the entire world in the end must submit to Islam and be dominated by Islam -- though non-Muslims may, should they accept what many Muslims continue to believe is perfectly just, live under those unambiguous conditions of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity whose sum is the status we now describe as "dhimmitude".

Any land area, even within the Western countries where Muslims come to dominate, will by many of them be regarded as "Muslim land." The claims made by various local Muslims may seem comical to us, such as that for the "Caliphate" in Cologne, or the insistence that certain areas in Malmo or Rotterdam or Muslim-populated towns in France are not to be treated as any longer under the control of representatives of the Infidel nation-state, but they are quite serious. That seriousness is being demonstrated even now both by Muslims and by the representatives (police, firemen, teachers) of that nation-state, who are often too afraid not to comply with the Muslim demands that they stay out of what is no longer their territory.

Jammu-Kashmir is part of India. It is not part of Pakistan. And the notion that any part of India in which there is to be found a Muslim-majority population is one where therefore Muslim claims have legitimacy is absurd. For what would follow, logically, would be a turning of all sorts of places within India into little Muslim-ruled areas. And given that the Muslim rate of population growth is always higher, in India and elsewhere, then the non-Muslim population, and given that Muslims have not hesitated to push out large numbers of non-Muslims (think of the 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits forced to flee when threatened with death), either one takes a firm stand and rejects Muslim demands or, by even hinting at "negotiating," one emboldens the mujahedin. The Israelis have done the latter, to their own sorrow. In failing to make their own case, they have also failed to help Infidels in Europe understand that the siege against Israel, that Lesser Jihad, is hardly the only, or even the most important, of the local Jihads now being waged. And it will continue to be waged, using all the instruments now available, unless met with well-informed, implacable, and relentless opposition.

India should not be "negotiating" over Jammu-Kashmir. There is no possibility of such a negotiation satisfying Muslims permanently. Since India now possesses this part of Kashmir (Pakistan also controls part), any negotiation will only lead to further Indian concessions, possibly even the surrender of land. What Pakistan would offer -- a grand agreement to cease support for cross-border terrorism -- is no concession at all. Pakistan cannot offer up as a concession what it has a moral and legal duty to do anyway.

And the same is true elsewhere in the world. One suspects that the outside world will be unsympathetic to the Indians unless and until they all begin, at the same time, to talk about the belief-system of Islam, and why concessions here and there make no sense, given the ultimate unappeasable demands that Muslims must, if they are to be true Muslims, continue to make on all Infidels.

Doesn't it make more sense for Infidels everywhere to recognize this and to discuss it openly? This would force Muslims to discuss their own ideology, and be embarrassed or chagrined by such discussion, so that not only will Infidels start supporting each other in their local conflicts, but so that some Muslims will have to cease the taqiyya-and-tu-quoque, and begin to admit that something in Islam, a good deal in Islam, must change if it is not to make Muslims permanently immiscible and un-integrable and regarded with permanent suspicion and hostility by Infidels everywhere.

Hindu civilization in Jammu-Kashmir should be defended. It is a pity that so many in India among those who are called, quite loosely and often quite comically, "intellectuals" -- all shy away from anything that might conceivably be taken as a defense of Hindu (or Sikh) civilization, or culture. Above all, no thoroughly modern Indian will dare suggest that Islam has done great damage to Jammu and Kasmir, as well as to India as a whole, and to Indian civilization. No, there are exceptions -- such as that cosmopolitan of Indian descent, V. S. Naipaul, who is not afraid of anyone. There are Indian-Americans (Hindu, Sikh, and even disaffected ex-Muslims) and their counterparts in Great Britain, who also know how silly it is not to make the case, to ignore history, or to shy away from the slightest hint of Hindutva, which is often mocked. Why, exactly? Is K. S. Lal to be mocked for "The Legacy of Muslim Rule in India"? Is Sir Jahundath Sarkar? Are all the other Hindu historians of India who have been unafraid to discuss what Muslim rule did to India?

Those of us who are not Indian should find out a good deal more about what happened on the subcontinent, and cease to so readily accept the "advanced" view which holds that anything smacking of "communalism" (a word used to indicate, of course, those who wish to show their sympathetic interest in, and identification with, Hindu India, and who refuse to play the game of sanitizing the history of Muslim rule) is ipso facto evil.

One hopes that those in the Western world who are articulate and aware, and of Indian (Hindu or Sikh descent, primarily) will help to educate others -- but that can only be done once one has educated oneself. Lal and Sarkar should be household words. The two volumes in which Sita Ram Goel simply lists tens of thousands of Hindu sites destroyed should be better known. Those Indians who become internationally famous, and always -- as a matter of course -- are quick to demonstrate that they have absolutely nothing to do with "communalism" (i.e., Hindu causes, Hindu history, Hindu interests) -- one thinks here of Amartya Sen -- would do better to study their own history, and not to assume that intelligent Hindus and Sikhs who show a bit of that supposedly terrible "communalism" must be wrong. They aren't.

But it is difficult for them to make their voices heard, given the received ideas, and cliches, of the day -- both those concerning Jammu-Kashmir, and those concerning the Jihad in general.

[Lurker]

I'm going to hazard a guess. Now I may be entirely off base here, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to go waaaaaay out on a limb here and say that there is a Jihad in, oh wherever the Hell this is, because maybe, just maybe

THERE ARE MUSLIMS THERE!

I know some folks will think that's a preposterous assertion, but I'm going to stick with it. That's my Final Answer Regis.

Now, what do I win?

L

[TBP]

Kashmir was promised a referendum on its status way back in 1948. That referendum has never been held, so to state categorically that it is "part of India" as if this has been decided is not accurate.

Furthermore, there is a sui generis independence movement there that must be considered part of the equation. Teh choices are not just India or Pakistan, but India, Pakistan, or independence.

The independence movement has been forcibly suppressed by over 700,000 troops. More than 90,000 Kashmiri Muslims have been killed at the hands of the government and its agents in the last 18 years. Tens of thousands are political prisoners.

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CAl.) has said, "For the people of Jammu and Punjab and Kashmir, India might as well not be a democracy. For the people in those regions, India might as well be Nazi Germany."

This is nowhere near as clear-cut as this partisan riter makes it out to be.

[TBP]

Hugh Fitzgerald clearly does not know very much about what is going on in Kashmir.

[Raj13008]

And I am sure Mr.Tim Phares , aka TBP , the lowly paid Pakistani lobbyist knows better.

[Raj13008]

"Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CAl.)"

So how much did the Pakistan lobby pay her ? By the way , a more famous Congresswoman , Rep. Cynthia McKinney , who was in the news recently....has much more scathing stuff to say about Indians being nazis and killing those poor Kashmiri muslims etc.

[raj bhatia]

"Kashmir was promised a referendum on its status way back in 1948. That referendum has never been held, so to state categorically that it is "part of India" as if this has been decided is not accurate. "

The U.N. security council resolutions are unbinding and Kofi Annan said so in no uncertain terms a couple of years back. The legal basis rests on the instrument of accession signed by the ruler of Kashmir in India's favour--the basis for partition. So India is on solid legal ground.


"Furthermore, there is a sui generis independence movement there that must be considered part of the equation. Teh choices are not just India or Pakistan, but India, Pakistan, or independence.

The independence movement has been forcibly suppressed by over 700,000 troops. More than 90,000 Kashmiri Muslims have been killed at the hands of the government and its agents in the last 18 years. Tens of thousands are political prisoners. "

The "independence movement" is lead by hard core jihadist terror groups, every one of which has been declared a terrorist outfit in the U.S. by acts of Congress and all of the civilized world. Any attempt to abet them in the U.S. is a plain felony. Most of the death toll is caused by systematic bomb attacks by Jihadi thugs,as the terror group certification amply proves. The Indian troops in Kashmir are doing God's work---stopping illiterate starving jehadi pakistani infiltrators looking to blow up Hindus as a short cut to the promised virgins.

No dear, Jehadi talking points won't work on FR.

[singfreedom]

We have a Pakistani Muslim friend who used to tell us that Kashmir should be part of Pakistan because India "treated the Muslims there so badly". One day I got fed up and told him that if they quit acting like such f'n jackasses, perhaps India would treat them better. Amazingly, he just grinned and agreed they probably would.

This is NOT to say that the Islamofacists would take this exchange that well, at all! Our friend is better educated (here) and FAR more intelligent than most Pakis. He also understands that Americans, usually, have a more truthful stance on terrorists (for which he has no use either) than the Islamic media.

[piytar]

Over on LGF (little green footballs), we refer to what you did here as a "fisking" -- and a damn fine one at that.

What is a fisking you may ask? Go here and search for it: http://www.zombietime.com/lgf_dictionary/

Short verions: "A point-by-point debunking of the kind of lies and/or idiocies written by those of the Robert Fisk persuasion."

[ncountylee]

This is nowhere near as clear-cut as this partisan riter makes it out to be.

If the filthy moose were in charge, the death toll would be much greater. IMHO

[Raj13008]

Good to see another Raj here. :-)

[ncountylee]

Monday, May 01, 2006 09:12:46 am | IANS
JAMMU: At least 20 Hindus are feared been killed by terrorists in Kulhan area of Bharat in Doda district, about 200 km north-east of Jammu late Sunday night, according to reports reaching here. Women and children were among the victims, initial unconfirmed reports said.

[Tzimisce]

Why are Muslims attacking in Kashmir?

Because they're Muslims. Blood thirsty, insane, war mongering Muslims.

We have a serious problem.

[Daaave]

Barbara Olson

September 13, 2001

THIS IS WAR

"Barbara Olson kept her cool. In the hysteria and terror of hijackers herding passengers to the rear of the plane, she retrieved her cell phone and called her husband, Ted, the Solicitor General of the United States. She informed him that he had better call the FBI — the plane had been hijacked. According to reports, Barbara was still on the phone with Ted when her plane plunged in a fiery explosion directly into the Pentagon."

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

nationalreview.com/

[CarrotAndStick]

The referendum for Kashmir is null and void, considering the massive influx of Pakistani Punjabi Muslims into the parts of Kashmir under Pakistani occupation, including the Northern Areas, North-West Frontier Province, Gilgit, and the rest, despite violent opposition from the ethnic natives of these areas.

On the Indian side, Pakistan-based Jehadis have killed or made to flee most of the Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist population of Kashmir.

Under these circumstances, a plebiscite cannot be used as a solution to the Kashmir dispute. Even the UN and the US, and in fact most non-Islamic, secular governments of the world acknowledges that.

[Daaave]

1996

"A shadowy terrorist outfit calling itself Al Faran abducted six Western tourists last year. One of them, an American, escaped while another, a Norwegian, was brutally executed last year (13 August 1995 - Hans Ostro's decapitated body found.)."

"Nothing is known of the fate of the remaining four, although it is more than a year since they were abducted."

subcontinent.com/

[RobbyS]

It is interesting to note that NRO dissassociated themselves from Coulter and now seems to be disassociating itself from war in Iraq,

[CarrotAndStick]

Terrorists kill 20 Hindus in Kashmir

[singfreedom]

Quite the opposite, I should think, he seems to have a pretty decent handle on the thing. Don't get me wrong, we like Paki's. Hubby spent four years (and one military coup) over there with the Army (Embassy duty). We have quite a few Pakistani friends, and, the smart ones, to a man, understand that the Kashmiri Hindus are being treated terribly by the Jihadis that run rampant in the area.

I find it remarkable, and I've said this before, that Muslim fundamentalists can be found in every troubled spot on the planet. I wonder if this is a coincidence? (tongue firmly in cheek)

[singfreedom]

Thanks for posting that picture of Barbara Olsen. I just loved to hear her speak. So bright, so nice, so informed on the issues. We really miss her and I know Ted does too.

[TBP]

On the Indian side, Pakistan-based Jehadis have killed or made to flee most of the Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist population of Kashmir.

False statement. In fact, there are many Sikh villages in teh area near Punjab. And it's teh Hindus who have driven Buddhists essentially out of all parts of India.

Thos Sikh villages are the sites of violence. One such, the village of Chithisinghpora in Kashmir, is where 35 Sikh villagers were massacred. Two independent investigatiosn 9one by the International Human Rights Organization adn the other jointly by the Punjab Human Rights Organization and the Movement Against Stte Repression) and a report in the New York Times all came to teh same conclusion: these 35 villagers wre murdered by Indian forces.

In another village in Kashmir, Indian troops were caught red-handed trying to set fire to a gurdwara (a Sikh place of worship) and many Sikh homes in the village. The Sikh andn Muslim villagers worked together to stop the burning and to detain the soldiers. They also seized their vehicle. The incident was widely reported, but of course nobody has been punished, presumably becasue they were carrying out the government's divide-and-rule strategy.

The fact is that a referendum was promised. Even in 1948, Kashmir had a Muslim majority (substantially) but a Hindu maharajah signed it over to India. (However, in Maharashtra there was amuslim maharajah ruling over a predominantly Hindu population. That maharajah was not given the chance to accede to India or Pakistan; Indian forces moved in and forced the state into India.) Whatever that socialist pinko Kofi Annan may say, India publicly pledged a free and fair vote on the status of Kashmir and it has used one excuse after another to deny the Kashmiris that vote for 58 years now.

[CarrotAndStick]

The vote India promised was destroyed by Pakistan the very instant it started infiltrating Pathan tribals into Kashmir from the Paksitani side.

Remember, Kashmir was a place of Sufi Muslims. They are regarded as apostates by the Paksitani Sunni Muslims and the Wahabbis.

What about the Hazratbal Shrine incident? It was one of those things that openly displayed the animosity between the above said Muslim communities.

And India has held internationally-montored and approved elections in Kashmir, with most areas showing high turnouts. Except maybe Baramulla and other fringe areas.

[TBP]

The "independence movement" is lead by hard core jihadist terror groups

More Hinducrat disinformation by theocrats determined to make everyone in South Asia live according to their standards and spread that ideology throughout the region.

I am aware of the leaders of teh independence movement. Most are working through teh political process, or trying to, until India has them killed so they can proclaim teh entire movement terrorist. But it keesp not working so tehy do it mroe fervently.

The fact is that there are amny peaceful, democratic Kashmiri independence leaders, in Kashmir and in the U.S., Britain,a nd other Western countries. They do not work for anyone. They simply pursue the goal of independence because they think that it's the best option for the people there.

I think a vote in favor of independence is what India fears, not a vote to join Pakistan.

As L.K. Advani said, "If Kashmir goes, India goes." India is too unstable to survive anyway, IMO. I think history shows us that multinational countries like India inevitably collapse.

[ARridgerunner]

The appearance of utter ignorance is no excuse. You have been corrected many times.

You are a liar.

[CarrotAndStick]

I think history shows us that multinational countries like India inevitably collapse.

You may think that. You may also think pigs can fly. But no one cares.

Pakistan was assumed far more "united" and homogeneous than India back in '47. Some of the reasons for America putting its weight behind Pakistan in preference to India, during and around those times was the immature assumption that Pakistan would stay, while India disintegrated.

Guess what? India forced the entire assumption into the dustbins of history when Pakistan disintegrated in '71.

India has had worser separatist movements than those today. It survived those. So will it survive the ones that remain.

P.S: Punjab 's dead terrorist movement must surely itch your @ss, doesn't? it? KPS Gill is a real hero! Lol!

[CarrotAndStick]

America was a bitterly divided nation during the time of its Civil War, the bloodiest war Americans have ever been involved in. No one would have thought, at that time, it would continue to this day to be the great UNITED nation that it is today.


The secret? D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

And it's teh Hindus who have driven Buddhists essentially out of all parts of India.

Quick, someone tell the Dalai Lama and the other Tibetan Buddhists who fled the Communist invasion of Tibet to find refuge in India.

We all realize you're doing your best to lie. It's just a shame you can't do a better job.

[singfreedom]

Given the current situation, it would probably be wise to "deny" it for another 58 years. Quite frankly, I don't know what your news source may be, but everything I've heard or seen only confirms what many already believe, Muslims cannot be trusted to treat "Infidels" (their word, not mine) fairly.

This article only seems to affirm what is happening, in other parts of the world, is also happening in Jammu-Kashmir.

As for Mr. Musharef, I have the utmost respect for the man. He is the best thing to happen to Pakistan in ages. He is, seemingly, attempting to drag his countrymen, most of them kicking and screaming, into the 21st century, but just watch, some half-witted, crazed, Islamofacist will eventually succeed in killing him. It always happens that way.

[TBP]

I think history shows us that multinational countries like India inevitably collapse.

You may think that. You may also think pigs can fly.

Steve Forbes wrote a brilliant analysis of this a couple of years ago in his magazine. "India, Meet Austria-Hungary" he called it. And he, too, showed that history tells us that such multinational states are destined for collapse. Austria-Hungary is one good example. The Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia are others.

The collapse of the Soviet Union must really bother you, considering how close they were to India. The two countries were the best of friends. That was just one piece of India's long record of anti-Americanism.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

The collapse of the Soviet Union must really bother you

Probably not as much as the collapse of the Pakistani-backed Khalistan terrorist movement bothers you.

[TBP]

"Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CAl.)" So how much did the Pakistan lobby pay her ?

The stupidity of this stands on its own. Rep. Rohrabacher is a HE. And HE is geetting paid his Congressional salary and nothing by any lobby, as far as I know. Do you realize how stupid, insensitive, and ridiculous posts like that make you look? Clearly not the work of areal FReeper.

BTW, I haven't seen you or any of your Hinducrat friends at the pro-troops demonstrations. I've been to several.

[TBP]

the Pakistani-backed Khalistan terrorist movement

Another false statement, as you well know. More Hinducrat disinformation. You might want to ask your masters about this. They know very well that the Khalistani leadership is peaceful, democratic, and nonviolent -- but they define a "terrorist" as anyone who disagrees with them. There is NO connection between Pakistan and the effort to liberate Khalistan. The Pakistani government offers rhetorical support, but that is all.

The fact is that a quarter of a million Sikhs hav ebeen murdered since the invasion of the Golden Temple. More than 52,000 are held without charge or trial as political prisoners.

The fact is that the Khalistani movement is in the form of marches, speeches, flag raisings, and other peaceful demonstartions, and the Indian government is having people arrested for these peaceful activities. It happened in January 2005, in June 2005, and again recently. Since when are such acts crimes in a democracy? These are the acts of a tryannical, totalitarian police state.

[CarrotAndStick]

Steve Forbes wrote a brilliant analysis of this a couple of years ago in his magazine. "India, Meet Austria-Hungary" he called it. And he, too, showed that history tells us that such multinational states are destined for collapse. Austria-Hungary is one good example. The Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia are others.

Bullcr@p. The were'nt democracies. Enough said.

As for the Soviet Union, India was close to them in the sense that a large fraction of modern India's infrastructure owes a lot to them- they came to India's aid when she needed it most.

But India was not as close to them as you are trying to paint it to be. For instance, if they were such great chums, then why did India NEVER provide the Soviets any military basing rights on any square inch of the huge territory it has?

A base in the Indian Ocean region would have come in very handy to the Soviets during the Cold War. But India didn't and wouldn't give them.

There is a lesson in strategy, in that India guards her own interests ruthlessly, if it comes to that. Most successful modern democracies practise this principle. Including the U.S.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

And HE is geetting paid his Congressional salary and nothing by any lobby, as far as I know.

What you know seems to be open to question. Here are some reports on Congressman Rohrbacher's views on Islamic matters:

"Top Jewish Republicans who have supported Congressman Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) for decades said in interviews that they have “serious concerns” with the California Republican’s ties to radical Muslim groups and their foreign backers, and his outspoken efforts to champion their cause in Congress."

Rohrabacher has a reputation among Arab-Americans as being very strong on Muslim issues, supporting the rights of the Muslim populations in South Asia, the Central Asian republics, Bosnia and elsewhere, as well as the civil rights of Muslims in the U.S.

Dana Rohrbacher seems to deeply concerned with Muslims and their problems, and since you and Muslims both consider India's existence to be a problem, I suppose it's only natural that he'd appeal to you. Too bad India continues to grow and prosper despite what you want.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

You might want to ask your masters about this.

Sorry, I don't have any masters to ask. This ain't Pakistan or any other -stan. People who live in secular societies learn to think for themselves. Those who live in primitive nations founded in religion never seem to manage that feat - thank God the Sikhs were spared that fate.

[CarrotAndStick]

They know very well that the Khalistani leadership is peaceful, democratic, and nonviolent....

Bwahahahaha!

These were hard-core Pakistan-trained terrorists, plain and simple. The fact that it was mostly Sikhs themselves who defeated this scourge on their lands badly hurts our little terrorist, TBP.

[CarrotAndStick]

KPS Gill began his career as a police officer in the north-eastern state of Assam, quickly earning a reputation as a tough officer. He became a household name across the country as Punjab police chief in the early 1990s, when he was credited with crushing a separatist revolt in the Sikh-majority state.

Widely praised as a one-man army and widely feared by criminals across the country, Mr Gill was dubbed "Super Cop" after his success in Punjab. Years after retiring from government job, Mr Gill's anti-terrorism skills are back in great demand. He publishes the Faultlines journal and runs the Institute for Conflict Management, as well as advising governments and institutions on security related issues. He was asked by the government of Sri Lanka last year for similar advice. Mr Gill has also written a book, "The Knights of Falsehood", which explores the abuse of religious institutions by the politics of terrorism in Punjab.

Mr. Gill is a well known authority on counter terrorism advising governments and instituions on wide ranging security and counter insurgency issues. His analysis and views on the topic can be accessed at www.satp.org.

[raj bhatia]

"More Hinducrat disinformation by theocrats determined to make everyone in South Asia live according to their standards and spread that ideology throughout the region."

Random garbage from a frustrated poster. I say it again. ALL the "independence groups" have been declared hardcore terror outfits after extensive review by congress. If you want to end up in jail out here, all you have to do is write a check to one of these "independence" groups?

Care to put your money where your random mouth is?

The politcal leaders calling for secession from India have formed an umbrella body called the Huriyat. It has more tiny parties under its banner, than there are people in Kashmir. Its a naked front for the Jihadist thugs and each of these dimwits run around the country jabbering about all topics under the sun.

How have they been oppressed? It bears repeating. India is a fine democracy.

"BTW, I haven't seen you or any of your Hinducrat friends at the pro-troops demonstrations. I've been to several."

Considering you seem to be a fervent supporter of groups that justify slitting the throats of our troops using the same arguments as the jihadist thugs in Kashmir, stop disgracing their memory by popping up at pro-troop demonstrations.

If you tell the relatives of the dead troops that you consider jihadist thugs branded as terrorists by our President are freedom fighters, they would puke in your face.


I have made my point and unless you can say something useful about the points I raised & not just wet your diapers, I am not wasting any more time on you.

[The Lion Roars]

Read this you allah judas. Another 22 innocent hindus killed by freakin Islamic "freedom fighters"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1511180.cms

admins please ban this guy Tim Phares who is nothing but a jiadi lobbyist.

[CarrotAndStick]

Even in 1948, Kashmir had a Muslim majority (substantially)...

Sheikh Abdullah was one of the most popular leaders of Kashmir ever. In one of his speeches, he said,:

"Finally we come to the issue which has made Kashmir an object of world interest, and has brought her before the forum of the United Nations. This simple issue has become so involved that people have begun to ask themselves after three and a half years of tense expectancy. "Is there any solution ?" Our answer is in the affirmative. Everything hinges round the genuineness of the will to find a solution. If we face the issue straight, the solution is simple.

The problem may be posed in this way. Firstly, was Pakistan's action in invading Kashmir in 1947 morally and legally correct, judged by any norm of international behavior ? Sir Owen Dixon's verdict on this issue is perfectly plain. In unambiguous terms he declared Pakistan an aggressor. Secondly, was the Maharajah's accession to India legally valid or not ? The legality of the accession has not been seriously questioned by any responsible or independent person or authority.

These two answers are obviously correct. Then where is the justification of treating India and Pakistan at par in matters pertaining to Kashmir ? In fact, the force of logic dictates the conclusion that the aggressor should withdraw his armed forces, and the United Nations should see that Pakistan gets out of the State.

In that event, India herself, anxious to give the people of the State a chance to express their will freely, would willingly cooperate with any sound plan of demilitarization. They would withdraw their forces, only garrisoning enough posts to ensure against any repetition of that earlier treacherous attack from Pakistan.

These two steps would have gone a long way to bring about a new atmosphere in the State. The rehabilitation of displaced people, and the restoration of stable civic conditions would have allowed people to express their will and take the ultimate decision.

Source.

[CarrotAndStick]

The speech continues,

"As a realist I am conscious that nothing is all black or all white, and there are many facts to each of the propositions before us. I shall first speak on the merits and demerits of the State's accession to India. In the final analysis, as I understand it, it is the kinship of ideals which determines the strength of ties between two States. The Indian National Congress has consistently supported the cause of the State's peoples' freedom. The autocratic rule of the Princes has been done away with and representative government have been entrusted with the administration. Steps towards democratization have been taken and these have raised the people's standard of living, brought about much-needed social reconstruction, and above all built up their very independence of spirit. Naturally, if we accede to India there is no danger of a revival of feudalism and autocracy. Moreover, during the last four years the Government of India has never tried to interfere in our internal autonomy this experience has strengthened our confidence in them as a democratic State.

The real character of a State is revealed in its Constitution. The Indian Constitution has set before the country the goal of secular democracy based upon justice, freedom and equality for all without distinction. This is the bedrock of modern democracy. This should meet the argument that the Muslims of Kashmir cannot have security in India, where the large majority of the population are Hindus. Any unnatural cleavage between religious groups is the legacy of Imperialism, and no modern State can afford to encourage artificial division if it is to achieve progress and prosperity. The Indian Constitution has amply and finally repudiated the concept of a religious State, which is a throw back to medievalism, by guaranteeing the equality of rights of all citizens irrespective of their religion, color caste and class.

The national movement in our State naturally gravitates towards these principles of secular democracy. The people here will never accept a principle which seeks to favor the interests of one religion or social group against another. This affinity in political principles, as well as in past association, and our common path of suffering in the cause of freedom, must be weighed properly while deciding the future of the State. "

And,

"The most powerful argument which can be advanced in her favor is that Pakistan is a Muslim State, and, big majority of our people being Muslims the State must accede to Pakistan. This claim of being a Muslim State is of course only a camouflage. It is a screen to dupe the common man, so that he may not see clearly that Pakistan is a feudal State in which a clique is trying by these methods to maintain itself in power. In addition to this, the appeal to religion constitutes a sentimental and a wrong approach to the question. Sentiment has its own place in life but often it leads to irrational action. Some argue, as supposedly natural corollary to this, that on our acceding to Pakistan our annihilation or survival depends. Facts have disproved this, right-thinking men would point out that Pakistan is not an organic unity of all the Muslims in this sub- continent. It has on the contrary, caused the dispersion of the Indian Muslims for whose benefit it was claimed to have been created. There are two Pakistans at least a thousand miles apart from each other. The total population of Western Pakistan which is contiguous to our State, is hardly 15 million. While the total number of Muslims, resident in India is as many as 40 million. As one Muslim is as good as another, the Kashmiri Muslims if they are worried by such considerations should choose the forty millions living in India.

Looking at the matter too from a more modern political angle religious affinities alone do not and should not normally determine the political alliance of States. We do not find a Christian bloc, a Buddhist bloc, or even a Muslim bloc, about which there is so much talk nowadays in Pakistan. These days economic interests and a community of political ideals more appropriately influence the policies of States.

We have another important factor to consider, if the State decides to make this the predominant consideration. What will be the fate of the one million non-Muslims now in our State ? As things stand at present, there is no place for them in Pakistan. Any solution which will result in the displacement or the total subjugation of such a large number of people will not be just or fair, and it is the responsibility of this House to ensure that the decision that it takes on accession does not militate against the interests of any religious group.
"

[CarrotAndStick]

Militant attack in Doda, 22 killed

Agencies
Posted online: Monday, May 01, 2006 at 0935 hours IST
Updated: Monday, May 01, 2006 at 1221 hours IST

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=66944

New Delhi, May 1: In a pre-dawn strike, militants on Monday killed 22 Hindus and seriously injured five others in remote villages of Panjdobi and Thava in Doda district of Jammu and Kashmir.



Heavily-armed Lashkar-e-Toiba militants, wearing combat dress, gathered the villagers outside the houses of the heads of Panjdobi and Thava hamlets in Udhayanpur belt of the district around 2 am, over 350 kms from Jammu city, and shot dead 22 Hindus, said Inspector General of Police, Jammu, S P Vaid.

According to reports, the LeT men pulled the victims out of their homes in the district and showered them with bullets and also used sharp-edged weapons.

Five others were seriously injured in the firing, he said adding an ex-serviceman, who escaped from the spot, later informed the police about the killings.


Brigadier A K Chowdary said army choppers were being pressed into service to rescue the injured persons.

Those killed included the family of one Sham Lal, a village head, brigadier Chowdary of the brigadier general staff 16 corps said.

LeT militants killed four abducted Hindus on Sunday night in Basantgarh forest of Udhampur district in the state. The militants kidnapped eleven people, including two Muslims, earlier in the day. The Muslims were later released but the fate of remaining five Hindus was not known.

[Raj13008]

TBP aka Tim Phares is in real life a small time lobbyist for Pakistan. His job is to garner support for any anti-India cause. So he is just doing his job here.

Just google 'tim phares india' to access a whole lot of third class amateurish anti-India material.

[HarmlessLovableFuzzball]

Is this guy 'TBP' a closet pro terrorist, Islamophile ? I don't care to read his postings, but if somebody does and finds something of that nature, maybe he ought to be given the
Z(ot) treatment.

[Gengis Khan]

""We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

As an Indian honestly I am not sure if I should agree or disagree with that. It seems to be a very emotionally charged comment.

"invade their countries"
Which countries?

[HarmlessLovableFuzzball]

For the people of Jammu and Punjab and Kashmir, India might as well not be a democracy. For the people in those regions, India might as well be Nazi Germany.

TBP might as well be a spokesperson for Hamas or Islamic Jihad. All you have to do is substitute 'Jammu and Punjab and Kashmir' with West Bank or Gaza, and India with Israel. How has he lasted this long on FR ?

[Gengis Khan]

Did you ever visit Kashmir or any other part of India?

[Gengis Khan]

Tell me which areas near Punjab and how many Sikhs? Tell us. Have you ever been there? How do you know?

[Gengis Khan]

They are all allies R-Dan Burton, R-Dana Rohrabacher, D-Edolphus Towns D-Cynthia McKinney and Tim Barnes Phares.

Pro-Pak lobby.

[TBP]

How do you know?

I know because it's reported in the media from people who are over there.