Skip to comments.Montenegro is no one's junior partner
Posted on 05/03/2006 10:18:06 AM PDT by mark502inf
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the kurds of kurdistan/southern kurd- i.e Northern Iraq shuld have the same rights as well as in Turkey and Iran, don't you agree?
Sorry, for taking so long to get back to you. The common ethnic heritage of what today are the peoples of the separate entities of Serbia and Montenegro is well known. But that is not the issue. The issue is the case for Montenegrin independence. Historically, Montenegro was an independent kingdom right up through the end of WWI and it was a separate republic of Yugoslavia (under its various names) for much of the time since them. Demographically, many of the people now living there self-identify themselves as Montenegrins, not Serbs. Legally, the upcoming referendum on independence is an action conducted in consonance with the agreement with which Serbia and Montenegro are joined. Internationally, there is agreement to recognize the results of the referendum. In sum, there is no reason why Montenegro should not be independent if that is what the people want. And we will know the answer to that in a couple days.
Serbs inside of Serbia have always been identified as Serbians, and not as Serbs. Only recently, due to incredible illiteracy and western media infuence, have the two been "fused" into one.
King Nikola I of Montenegro used to say: All Montenegrins are Serbs, but not all Serbs are Montenegrins. In other words: all Texans are Americans, but not all Americans are Texans.
If this were the case, if the Montenegrins simply wanted back their statehood, a separate Serb state, to which they have every right, and to which their Petrovich family dynastic heir is entitled, that would be one thing. One could make a case for it. I would imagine that one could make a case for California or Texas to become separate countries too. I would have no problem with either.
The problem is that Montenegro is being re-created on a lie that Montenegrins are not Serbs, but some unknown ethnic people, and this referendum will legitimize such lie (to the detriment of Montenegrins in the long run).
Tito's communists insisted that Montenegrins were not Serbs on some Bolshevik pseudo-science and with a clear agenda to atomize Serbs. All the census estimates of Montenegro's ethnic makeup after WWII strictly forbade people born in Montenegro to identify as Serbs. Thus earlier ones show 80-90% "Montenegrins" and 6-8% Serb(ian)s. This number has been steadily dropping since 1990 when it was again "okay" to be both a Serb and a Montenegrin.
Even then, the nature of census questions were such that they made choices difficult. First, by substituting the the name Serb for Serbian, many a Montenergin would have difficulty choosing because they are not Serbians. When they were allowed to declare themselves as Serbs in 2003, the number of Serbs in Montenegro in 1990 miraculously rose from 8% to 32% and "Montenegrins" (by "nationality) dropped from 90% in the 1950's to mere 43%.
What happened is that despite all the lies of Tito's Serb-hating regime that were used to raise generations to believe in some sort of "Montenegrin" ethnic entity, it was a colossal failure, although a good portion of the Montenergin Serbs for one reason or another today believe they are not Serbs, even though all their prominent ancestors identified as Serbs! (it tells me much about an average Montenegrin's educational level)
The vote on Sunday will probably succeed because, in addition to 43% of "Montenergins", there will be 5% of Albanians who will vote for independence for obvious reasons, and about half the Bosnian Muslims, or about 4% in total. So one can count on a 52% majority to vote for independence, thus legitimizing a lie.
Any hope that nearly half the Montenegrins living in Serbia will travel to Montenegro to vote against independence will probably fail despite free transport offered them. Their notoriety as rather "laid back" maye be stronger than their desire to keep the country undivided. Only those who stand to lose benefits (such as free education) may go to vote. Others will simply ask for Serbian citizenship and stay put. The economic and political consequences for Montenegro (which is useless in the former sphere), however, will be enormous. Soon, the intoxication of independence will wear off and the reality will set in. All in due time.
(Denny Crane: "Every one should carry a gun strapped to their waist. We need more - not less guns.")
Well, while some of the people may vote based on that factor, there are many other influences that seem just as or more important: a separate history as an independent nation, the sense that they are in an unequal partnership with much bigger Serbia, the idea that they can more quickly get into the EU if they are not part of Serbia, and the idea that Serbia's difficulty in dealing with the war-criminal issue and resultant problems with the US & the rest of the international community is undeservedly holding Montenegro back both economically and politically.
In any event, let's hope the vote either is over 55% or under 50%. If it falls in the gray area in-between, we will have yet another thorny Balkan issue.
Sounds like the UNMIK guys guarding the Christian Churches are starting to slow you down a bit.
The history of Texas as a sovereign country apart from the US did not stop it from joining the the US. Montenegro citizens voted after WWI to unite with Serbia -- this was and is the dream of all Serb people and that will exist as long as the Serbs exist, traitors and mercenaries notwithstanding. So, we can throw out that "theory" of yours.
They are an unequal partner in everything except having equal positions in government regulated by the Constitution in order to "make up" for their tiny size. The rule was that if the PM is Serbian, the President would be a Montenegrin, etc.
In order to demand equality, one has to make equal contribution. One of the excuses the US gives to the UN when it uses heavy-handed tactics of pressuring the UN is that the US gives above and beyond what other countries give to the UN and therefore has the right to demand concessions and privileges. Nothing like this exits between Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia gives/gave Montenegro disproportionately, to be sure, so if there is any inequality it is on the Serbian side. Out with that "theory" of yours too.
Montenegro has no chance of being accepted by the EU because, among other things, PM Milo Djukaovich has a warrant for his arrest in Italy for cigarette profiteering when he was buddy-buddy with Miloshevic. Montenegro has nothing to offer the EU that it fifn't offer Serbia &;#E151; which is nothing. Montenegro has nothing, never did and never will, except a small portion of the Adriatic which survives thanks to Serbian tourism! Germans and Scandinavians come to Croatia and Greece. Out with this joke as well.
War criminals? Djukanovich is certainly one or should be on the list, bt he is too buddy buddy with us to take any heat. So, now in order to win the popular vote of the world which distinctly dislikes America nowadays, New England shoud use that as an excuse to secede? Secession and union cannot change with each regime change. Otherwise countries would be falling apart as fats as they were formed.
The US has been helping Montenegro's banana republic leadership left and right, even during the NATO agression, and fostered its independence as a counterbalance and isolation of Serbia. Old tried tactics, Mark. Your arguments simply hold no water. You have no clue what you are talking about. You are just parroting official truth from various American media and government apparatchiks.
Read up on the subject next time, and try to know what you are talking about. Montenegro is an economic premature birth. It has been living off of Serbia for the past sinc 1918. It will continue to live off of American "donations" while it serves a useful role, and then it will be dumped like all vassal states get dumped when their usefulness is used up.
Montenegro cannot sustain itself form its own toil and soil. The myth that the Turks never conquered is just that, a myth. The Turks incorporated all of Montenegro into the Ottman Empire in 1499, but gave it up as a "dark vilayet" a hell hole because nothing except poison ivy grows there over most of its territory. Still, arable parts and coastline were Turkish.
Montenegrins have often forgotten that the Turks came rolling over all of it territory and routing its pricky haiduks and rebels whenever they chose to. Montenegrins remeber only their victories, never their numerous defeats, but don't tell them.
The impassible mountains were left to the tribes (I mean that literally, that's how they refer to themselves, and their last names come from individual tribes).
Hertzegovina Serbs in Bosnia speak the same dialect, to the tee, as the Montengrins do and they have always considered themselves Serbs. For the record, Italian Fascists, Nazi Germans and Croatian fascists (Ustashas), Yugoslav Communists and now the "international community" have favored "ethnic" Montenegrins. Nice company to keep. Djukanivich can proudly consider himself a member of America's favorite club along with Pinochet, Papa Doc, Gen. Noriega, various South Korean dictators, various Arab princes, and so on. Bastards, maybe, "but they are our bastards" to paraphrase Pres. Roosevelt's famous statement.
Serbia had nothing to gain from Montenegro, just as often our siblings are of no particular use to us, but we stick together because we are family and because Montenegrins make up in their lack of productivity in toil and in poverty of their soil with richness of character, poetry and spirit. They became the guardians and caretakers of the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchy when the Turks routed Serbs from Kosovo in the 18th century following the Austro-Turkish war. They gave us many prominent figures, some good some not so good. They stood with the rest of the Serbs and died with the rest of them, when the enemy came knocking on the doors.
Today, foreign interests won. Foreigers come and go. And leave their garbage.
Well, Kosta, it looks like over 55% of the people actually living in Montenegro disagree with you.
It has been living off of Serbia for the past sinc 1918. It will continue to live off of American "donations" while it serves a useful role, and then it will be dumped like all vassal states get dumped when their usefulness is used up....Montenegro has nothing, never did and never will...Montenegrins remeber only their victories, never their numerous defeats, but don't tell them ... Serbia had nothing to gain from Montenegro, just as often our siblings are of no particular use to us ...
Wow. No wonder the Montenegrins wanted to get away.
Today, foreign interests won. Foreigers come and go. And leave their garbage.
Foreigners didn't vote yesterday. It was the people of Montenegro who chose independence.
Hitler was also a product of a democratic election.
Wow. No wonder the Montenegrins wanted to get away.
You left out the other half which explains why they didn't.
Foreigners didn't vote yesterday. It was the people of Montenegro who chose independence
Actually, Montenegrins didn't win. Some Montenergings (a minority) with ethnic Albanians, Croats, and Bosnian Muslims, did. No matter how you turn it around -- the foreign, anti-Serb minorities there tipped the scale.
And therein is the problem. The people you are referring to are citizens, not "foreign". And does wanting to be left alone to run their own affairs make them "anti-Serb"? Albanians, Croats, and Slavic Muslims have lived in Montenegro for centuries. Yet to you--a Serb--they are "foreign." Kosta, have you ever considered that perhaps that attitude is a reason why the Serbs have had problems with all their neighbors from the former Yugoslavia, Slav or non-Slav, Christian or non-Christian?
Serbia has been home to two dozen minorities and is the most multi ethnic of the former Yugoslav republics. The fact that these minorities chose to live there speaks volumes for itself.
In Europe, as you know, immigrants do not "melt" into existing nations. They remain islands of the nations they came from, usually just across the border. In most cases, their loyalties stay across the border as well.
Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and Albanians have proven their anti-Serb stance, despite the fact that they lived in Serbia for centuries as you say. They never recognized Serbia as their country.
If you read up on the biography of Milo Djukanovich, you will see how the foreign interest was very much involved in winning over Djukanovich, a pathetic and spineless opportunist, who was willing to do anything to survive western pogroms unleashed on Serbia.
Today, the Times of London ran a story about some 16,000 Albanians, Bosnian Muslims and Croats traveling from NY to Montenegro to vote and boasting that they tipped the scale, as they waved Albanian, Croat and Bosnian Muslim flags.
For your information, the 44% of the vote for the Serb side came from Serbs (32% of the population) and Rashka's (Sandzhak's) Muslims and some other non-Serbs who sided with the Serbs. So, no, not all non-Christians, Slavs or non-Slavs, served foreign interests, Mark. Many Montenegrins, Albanians, Bosnian Muslims and Croats, however, definitely.
I see the Soros fluffer's selling the same tripe over here!
Yes the West has made Serbia a Pariah in their moronic attempts to appease the Muhammedan so everyone who wants to curry favor with the EU will turn their backs on the Serbs while the Islamofascists burn Christian Churches in Kosovo.
Of course, only Christians are bothered by this...so I guess the usual suspects are OK with it all.
And when this appeasement ends like all the other failed attempts, the Serbs will be ready for it, the EU and the fools who followed them will not.
There was a good radio segment (can't remember the station) on the Montenegro vote to split. Many pro's and con's discussed, but ultimately it came down to which path offered quicker integration with Europe. Serbia offered many government services and trade, but a slower path. Alternatively independence meant a loss of government services, but a possibly quicker path for European integration.
That is a bait. There is no substanace to that whatsoever. Anyone who knows anything about Montenegro and its politics will know that it's a crime-infested state with lots of shady characters claiming to know "top government officials." The very PM, Milo Djukanovich, is on the Italian arrest warrant under suspicion of being involved with mafia cigarette smugglers.
The media in Montenegro are either directly controlled by the power brokers or are heavily influenced by them. Montenegro does not meet European standard criteria economically, socially, politically, or otherwise.
Montenegro has nothing to contribute to Europe. It lived off of financial aid from Serbia. For instance, all diplomatic positions in the now former union between Serbia and Montenegro had to be 50-50. The cost for that had to be paid from the federal pot of money, and that was filled with taxpayers' taxes. Except that there are 8 million Serbians and 450,000 Montenegrins. Guess who carried the burden for all federal benefits the Mongtenegrins enjoyed?
Montenegrin students in Belgrade (Serbia) could attend universities for free (only foreign students pay tuition). Where do you think the money for that will come from now?
I think the coffers that were showering Mill and his gang of opportunists with money from the West until now will dry up very fast.
They have been useful fools for someone else's interests. Now that they have done their job of Judas Iscariot, their thirty pieces of silver will seem rather worthless in comparison.
Why do you discount the desire of the majority of the people living in Monetenegro to be independent?
I think this is why the word is "Balkinization".
Oh, well... maybe some of the smarter students will immigrate to Serbia from Montenegro and make a real brain drain occur in the mountain-land. Ah, there is a GOD!!
The EU (before it was called that) and the US were unanimous about keeping the former-former Yugoslavia intact. The State Department was publicly adamant about keeping the territorial integrty of the SFRY, yet tacitly it allowed it to break up. Clearly, that was all smoke screen.
If you read up on the history of Milo Djukanovich, you can see clearly how the foreign interests "helped" him morph from an opportunistic communist apparatchik allied with pro-Serb, pro-Miloshevich block, into an anti-Serb, pro-independence "pragmatist" a la his buddy Djindjich.
Milo went to speak with Sec. Cohen in late 1999 where he brokered a "deal" of cooperation (and compensation!) in the forthcoming NATO aggression that was tacitly choreographed as the war in Iraq was of more recent memory.
As we say "nothing happens unless God wants it to happen" we can just as easily say that nothing happens in the world politics without the US either allowing it or helping it. In either case, it is US foreign interest, backed by US financial interest, that makes small banana republics do nothing without the approval of the Big Uncle from America.
You have to understand that Milo Djukanovich was directly responsible for the aggression on Dubrovnik, yet he remains uncharged for any war crimes. How convenient. He may be a crook, but, as President Roosevelt would say, "at least he is our crook." :)
Thanks for your comments.
Would you support the separation of Southern California, Texas or Florida etal from the Union due to aspirations for independence from an increasing Latino majority?
1-The referendum on independence for Montenegro was mutually agreed upon by Serbia and Montengro.
2-The Hispanics in America and Albanians in Kosovo comparison holds no water. The argument for independence of Kosovo is the same one we used in our Revolution. It is based on the illegitimate nature of an oppressive government and the inherent right of people to fight for their freedom against such a government.
When the US government dismisses all the Hispanic local officials in the Southwest and replaces them with Anglos from outside the area, fires Hispanic workers from their jobs, beats & jails those who protest, burns the villages & schools & religious buildings of the locals, and then sends in the army assisted by drunken bands of paramilitaries to wholesale cleanse the Hispanic population from out of their homes, no matter their citizenship or how long they've lived there--shooting enough to "encourage" cooperation--then and only then can you make a comparison between Hispanics in the USA and Albanians in Kosovo.
As US Ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton said:
"... the violent disintegration of Yugoslavia, the ethnic cleansing and humanitarian crisis of 1999, ... make Kosovo a very, very special case."
For sure, they will regret their decision sooner or later.
I hear the muslims and Albanians, along with Cetinje, Bar, Tivat, Ulcinj, Rozhaj, and a couple others won Montenegro's independance. That is so great. That cutural remark should be suited for yourself. If you cannot take the truth and reality then keep quiet and just look. Tell your serb brothers that I hear visas are comming. You may need one to get around the former republics of Yugoslavia who now are independant countries. Kosovo and Voyvodina are next. I wonder why all of them wanted to split. And yet Serbia is still inocent. Any common factor?
The minority groups helped win. The majority is Montenegrins. They had the votes. I hear Voyvodina is also looking for Independance. Any truth in this. If so what happens to Serbia after Kosovo and Voyvodina leave. You think Romania may want to get together after all the danube river crosses both of these lands. Hungary may be interested to. They make good Hungarian Goulash.
Nice flags. They look similiar. You know what that means. Montenegrins and Albanians have lived well with each other for centuries. Maybe Serbs should take this example.
do you think that Djukanovic interests is making greater albania. They have lived along side with each other for centuries.fought and shared victories.80 percent of albanians are moslem, 10 percent orthodoc, and the other 10 roman catholics. different ethnicities but all the people from the balkans have similiar culture and traditions. everyone should live in peace. the independance of montenegro does not mean they will not have good relations with serbia. you have to praise montenegro government they apologized on behalf of serbia to the former republics of yougoslavia for the slaughter house that serbia created. serbia has yet to do that why. when you smell like shit burry your head in the sand and take it out it still smells.
The EU has been stressing "integrations" while forcing disintegration on the Serbs. Do you really believe that this will stabilize the region? Of course not. But some Serbs are fooled into believing that by giving up chunks of their nation will land them EU membership. EU will fall apart before that happens.
I am sure that the political choreographers and cartographers of the EU and Washington will continue their agenda by creating conditions for separation of Voyvodina (based on what, not sure, since 64% of the population is Serbian, but they can be bought). Money usually works well. It worked for Djukanovich. Now that he did his act of Judas Iskariot, the hand that kept handing him money will stop and he will be left to the wolves . But such is the fate of all who sell their own for small change.
But nothing stays the same, and in the next era to come the empires will change, and as old empires die out so will the moles that grew with them.
one thing I always felt was that yugoslavia was broken up in parts because the west believed that the smaller the less powerful. No one can argue that Yugoslavia had everything. Good economy, military, etc. It would have been the second switzerland of europe. Politics definately played a role in its distruction. I now hope that each independant country from the Yugoslav era could find it in themselves to live peacfully and help one another out. Remember united we stand apart we fall.
what is your issue man. any need to offend another ethnicity. grow up and smell the coffee. this is uncalled for.
i do not recall that Montenegro or Serbia had IslamicFacisit people. You seem to make it sound like you have facts. The bosnian moslems of the former yugoslavia had the same cultural background as Serbs. Their traditions were the same. The lanuage was the same. The only difference was their religion which if I am correct they were converted by the Ottoman Empire just likme many of Albanians in southeast Europe. Remember Albanians were all Roman Catholics until the Ottoman rule. After the ottoman they were communist like everyone else in Yugoslavia. As far as Serbia fighting off islamic extremists they were killing there own people or the neighbors which they ate and drank together. Who is an extremist now. The serbs have been trying to become russians the last 20 years after Tito died. Maybe they should become a republic with Russia no one else wants any part with them. Lastly God Bless Clinton for doing something noble. He saw enough bloodshed in Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo and if not for Nato they would have hit Montenegro as well. No doubt about it.
you must be a funny guy. What is this that you have against the albanians.
What are you drinking?
I don't know but sometimes I wonder myself. Stay healthy.