Posted on 05/12/2006 5:47:27 PM PDT by ohioWfan
I’m going to try something entirely new to Free Republic………..start a thread restricted to practical, positive. pro-active things that this huge forum filled with good people who love this country can actually DO about helping to solve the illegal immigration problem, and how we can ‘encourage’ our leaders at all levels to get their acts together.
This is not a thread for venting or attacking (Heaven knows, that‘s been done plenty around here!). Let’s keep it entirely positive……..no attacks on the President and ‘Bushbots’ or the GOP………or on each other, from EITHER side. No threats to ’kick the GOP bums out’ …….we all know that the risk of having Dems in power is too great for that irresponsible threat. NO name-calling from EITHER side……..’Jorge‘ and ‘El Presidente‘ both qualify as disrespectful name-calling. (Perhaps we can all just ignore anyone who tries to turn this into a hostile thread, and punch the abuse button, but NOT engage in battle with him/her). Disagree, but be respectful about it.
What we really need are practical things we can do……with links to key Senate and Congressional offices, the White House, as well as STATE and LOCAL government offices, examples of THOUGHTFUL and POSITIVE letters to our leaders that will actually be read, and responded to. Phone numbers, and ideas for THOUGHTFUL and POSITIVE phone calls to leaders. What we also need are specific PRAYER requests for you, so that those of us who believe that our God is the God of the impossible can be on our knees in prayer for the details of this immense problem. We need fervent prayer for the President and Congress, as well as our State and Local authorities. And we need Freeper creativity!
We are LEGION, and together, I believe we can make a difference in moving this engine down the track more rapidly.
There are people who are very angry with the President and the Republicans in Congress, and people who still respect and admire the President greatly, and are angry with the Republicans in Congress……..and even some who are NOT angry with the Republicans in Congress (OK……..maybe not..... :)………..but we ALL want to end this invasion, and help our brothers and sisters in the Southwest to have their safe and normal lives return, and prevent the invasion from moving further.
Those of us outside the region may not understand what things are like, but we want to, so if those of you in the affected states could give us more details about how bad this is, without belittling us because we don’t live there, it would be much appreciated. We know it‘s bad, and we care about it, even though we cannot fully appreciate it from where we sit.
There is a great work force of pro-Bush people out in freeper lurker land who have been shoved out of the discussion by bashers. There are lots of us who want to know what’s going on, but wouldn’t go on a standard immigration thread if our lives depended on it, because the disdain for us there is palpable. We may agree with the idea of a guest worker program, or we may not, but we don‘t want to be labeled just because our ideas are different.
So…… LET US HELP YOU, PLEASE! We are activists, and we are willing to work.
Tell us what we can do. Let’s band together on this important issue to do whatever we can do to put pressure on Congress, the White House, state and local governments………polite, respectful pressure……….as well as encouraging them when they do make good decisions, and see what happens.
What do you think? Can we be pro-active and actually get something done? Can we discuss this without rancor, but with the common goal in mind to rescue our beloved country from invasion?
If you think so, please ping those who will, without personal attacks, tell us their stories, and let us get involved in getting something done. This thread is not to place blame, but to come up with solutions.
This is America………..and we are Freepers! Let’s ROLL!
From where?
Conservatives working together for the cause.
Agreed.
After 1992 I thought Conservatives learned that if we didn't stick together, work to find common ground and vote that we would get B J Clintoned again.
Thank you for providing the vehicle for civilized discussion, ohioWfan! The effort was brave and resulted in an excellent exchange of ideas and information by concerned citizens.
Stemming the flow of illegals into this country would be an agreed upon first step according to what I've read so far. This would also shut down the illegal enterprises associated with their entry which, IMO, are worse than those who employ them after they get here.
>>You should make no mistake about this- these employers aren't stupid. They KNOW they are hiring illegals and benefit financially from doing so. They aren't the "good guys<<
>Yeah those "evil" people who take the financial risks to put food on America's table or shelter over American's heads, they are just dispicable.<
Dane: Your sarcasm falls on deaf ears.
>Could I send more than $300 to some other country?<
Are you volunteering to send money abroad, inquiring whether it's legal, asking about the technical details of how to do it, or what?
I am an expatriate U.S. citizen and regularly send money in both directions (i.e. into and out of the U.S.), e.g. transferring funds into any of several accounts of mine at here (Europe) or at home, of relatives, Amazon.com, etc.
Great information, Wolfstar! In your post you said:
"President Bush has been talking about and urging the Congress to act on illegal immigration and border security throughout his presidency. The issue IS a hot-button issue now because he has been discussing it for years, and challenging people to think about how to deal with the problem Constitutionally, humanely and yet forcefully."
_______________
In addition to illegal immigration and border security, President Bush initiated discussion on problems concerning energy, Social Security, Medicare, education, tort reform, defense/military reform and economy/tax reform in the 2000 campaign. All are still hot-button issues.
I believe President Bush ran for office with a reform agenda he was intent upon implementing. Most of the problems in the areas of concern were brought to us courtesy of ..... 'The Left'.
Interjection of events brought on by the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks did not interrupt pursuit of reform, but congressional obstruction by 'The Left' did.
Although most here don't agree with everything the Bush Administration does, the solution is not to hand the country back to 'The Left'.
1. Secure the border and stop the flow.
2. Congress to clarify "acnhor baby" law, and make it clear that offspring of people here illegally are not automatically US citizens.
3. Enact national Citizen card program, which includes biometric data. Make penalty for fraud/falsification of this card at least ten years of hard labor. (We need this to vote as well)
4. Legislate that citizen services are only available to those with a card.
5. Enforce (and increase if necessary) fines on employers who look the other way and hire those who lack either a citizen card, or proper legal immigration status.
6. Ratchet welfare reform for citizens to next level-- there are no jobs that are beneath Americans.
7. Remove all minimum wage laws. The government should not deny a person with only $4 an hour skills the ability to get a job at his value, and improve his skills so he can move up the ladder.
That those who are here illegally should buy their own ticket back to Mexico PRONTO because we are going to identify them and deport them. They should apply to come into the US the proper way, AFTER they are back home.
Morale in the US is low..Bush will lift the morale of this Nation substantially if he gets tough with Mexico on Monday.
sw
Hi Rob. I agree w most of what you've included (restating here for ease in reference by others):
1. "Secure the border and stop the flow."
Totally agree w you and others on this. This must be the 1st step and done immediately. I've read that the flow has increased since the Senate bill, which many perceived to be ammnesty. The other measures don't mean much if we don't stop the flow now.
2. "Congress to clarify "acnhor baby" law, and make it clear that offspring of people here illegally are not automatically US citizens."
Absolutely agree with this. I'd like to make it retroactive for the last few years, too - -but, not sure they can do this.
3. "Enact national Citizen card program, which includes biometric data. Make penalty for fraud/falsification of this card at least ten years of hard labor. (We need this to vote as well)"
I have to think about this one a bit more. Here are some of my initial thoughts:
I think we need to be able to identify citizens and legal aliens; however, I think a National ID card may cause a huge amount of squealing by many (it did a few years ago when it was mentioned) and would be very expensive (though, I suspect it would pay for itself over time by assisting in weeding out who should and shouldn't be receiving entitlement services). If not a National ID card for citizens, then there should be a non-forgable ID card for legal aliens and guest workers AND anyone getting a driver's license must show proof of citizenship - driver's licenses would be marked differently for citizens and non-citizens.
Along w this, NO MORE MOTOR VOTER. Must show proof of citizenship when voting (including absentee) or registering to vote. OR state is all absentee ballot and WA state just moved to a good portion of the state all absentee - - in my mind, that just opens it up for more mischief (like we didn't already have enough in the last elections).
4. "Legislate that citizen services are only available to those with a card."
Agree in principle - see also my comment in #3.
5. "Enforce (and increase if necessary) fines on employers who look the other way and hire those who lack either a citizen card, or proper legal immigration status."
Agree. May need to strengthen the law here a bit (will post separately).
6. "Ratchet welfare reform for citizens to next level-- there are no jobs that are beneath Americans."
Agree - think there are also a lot of teens who would love to have a job after school and/or during the summer, that can't find entry-level jobs because of illegals.
7. "Remove all minimum wage laws. The government should not deny a person with only $4 an hour skills the ability to get a job at his value, and improve his skills so he can move up the ladder."
Not sure that we'll ever be able to remove minimum wage laws - the Dims have been screaming they need to be increased and it wouldn't surprise me if they use that as a bargaining chip for something else (e.g., we'll agree to troops on the border if the Pubbies agree to increase minimum wage). I don't like them, but I can accept them, if they're not increased.
I'd like to add the following (not all of this will fly, but as long as we're thinking about it and doing some wishful thinking):
8. All state and local municipalities MUST follow the law - cannot pass laws of their own to look the other way or will receive reduced Fed funds. Along w this, local and state cops don't need to be PC and CAN ask for proof of citizenship.
9. Expedite the hearing and deportation process and have enough holding facilities for those awaiting hearing, so they're not released back into the population, never to be seen again.
10. Impose a tarif/tax on funds being wired out of the country.
11. You must be a US Citzen to join a Union (I know this is probably pie in the sky - - just don't think that the unions and, therefore, Dims should be making money off of illegals or even guest workers.
12. Cut off or reduce aid to Mexico. Pres Bush should have a chat w Vinnie and tell him that we're going to start deducting all medical costs and costs for incarcerating their criminals and processing their illegals from the aid we send them.
13. If you get guest worker status, you cannot bring 15-20 family members in the US, too.
14. You can earn a path to citizenship, but you need to get in line behind those that have been on the LEGAL waiting list.
15. Anyone coming in as a guest worker, on a work visa, etc. must have a health check. If you have TB or other communicable diseases, you cannot come in.
16. National database to track the whereabouts of guest workers and those here on visas. You don't report periodically, you will be picked up and deported (or you'll be deported when you are found).
17. Those who have been here illegally must pay back taxes and fines to stay. One must have been here X years.
18. Database of jobs available - employers can only hire guest workers when they show that they have a job that 'no American wants to do' and/or they cannot find an American to do the work. (again, probably pie in the sky - this is just another thought).
19. Increase the # of border patrol and ICE agents.
20. We've been talking about the southern border, but there are a lot coming in the northern border and that needs to be addressed as well.
21. Any Mexican guards that come across the border will be shot (if they're shooting at our guards) and/or incarcerated.
22. Human smugglers will be incarcertated in a Fed pen for X years.
23. Not part of the immigration bill, per se, but related: All voting ballots in ENGLISH only. If you can't read English, you shouldn't be voting.
24. Must be able to speak, read, and write English to become a citizen.
Good morning, ohioWfan; thank you again for starting this thread.
I will add a few things that this president has done or is doing. No other president has attempted to deal with the border in a meaningful way except this president, who already has his hands full dealing with a war in two countries and a malicious press and some seemingly malicious "freepers".
I want to say this again. Many of you have seen me say it on other threads. This isn't a message for the good freepers who live in border areas and see first-hand the horrible results of out of control illegal immigration. To those of you - you have my sympathy and full support.
But many of us are seeing names for the first time. Many of those people signed up some time ago but only post on immigration threads or only bash the President or both.
Jim Robinson wrote the foreward to a book called Hillary's Secret War. Free Republic is mentioned prominently in the book and it details how paid opinion shapers come to forums like this one and try to turn conservatives against Republicans. The other thing the book detailed is how Jim Robinson was able to trace where posters were coming from and a lot of people from the 90's were posting from the Clinton White House and The Washington Post.
These people are trying to destroy this forum and turn us against each other. They are trying to force us to spend so much time defending the president and Republicans that we don't do what we do best -- Research and Activism.
I don't know how to fix this problem, but I don't intend to sit idly by and watch these opinion shapers ruin what is the best place on the internet. And I don't intend to let them stop us from moving forward with the conservative agenda and defeating the democrats either.
Great idea to get back to basics and try to rationally discuss this issue.
Unfortunately, at the present time I have smoke emanating from my ears from all of the divisive rhetoric and sliming. I am all talked and defended out for now, but I am book marking this thread and may add my two cents later........after the wounds have healed.....:-).
Things this president has done or will do:
Since President Bush took office, funding for border security has increased by 66 percent.
The border patrol agents have been expanded their personnel by 30 percent.
Protective infrastructure, such as vehicle barriers and fencing in urban areas, is being installed. Manpower, technology, and infrastructure are being integrated in more coordinated ways than ever before.
Since President Bush took office, agents have apprehended and sent home more than 6 million people entering the country illegally - including more than 400,000 with criminal records.
More than 600,000 illegal immigrants were apprehended through the Arizona Border Control Initiative last year - an increase of more than 50 percent over the previous year.
The President has set a goal to end "catch-and-release" over the next year. Most illegal immigrants from Mexico can be returned to Mexico within 24 hours.
Non-Mexican illegal immigrants present a different challenge. For decades, government detention facilities did not have enough beds for the non-Mexican illegal immigrants caught at the border - so most were released back into society. They were each assigned a court date, but virtually no one showed up. The Administration is ending the practice of "catch-and-release" by increasing the number of beds in detention facilities by 12 percent this year; the President's FY07 budget proposes increasing that number by another 32 percent. The Administration is expanding the use of "expedited removal," which allows us to send non-Mexican illegal immigrants home more quickly.
Last year, it took an average of 66 days to process a non-Mexican illegal immigrant. Now, the process is taking only 21 days.
Since last summer, the total number of non-Mexican illegal immigrants released into society has been cut by more than a third.
Last year, President Bush signed legislation to more than double the resources dedicated to worksite enforcement. We are working to hold businesses accountable and crack down on document forgery. Next month, the Administration will launch new law enforcement task forces in 11 cities to dismantle document fraud rings.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/immigration/
If you ever get the chance to operate a small business, you will understand more clearly.
In a competitive environment it is paramount that a small business owner do the things necessary to stay connected to the realities of his/her competitive environment. This would be the management of overhead, salaries, equipment and office costs so that it's price for services stays in line with the prices quoted by it's competition.
Secondly, not having excess people and resources to waste, they cannot pay for the security checks necessary to ferret out false documentation, especially is other are not doing the same. They cannot pay workmen's comp when others are not, they cannot pay 12 dollars per hour when others are paying eight, and they cannot offer benefits when others offer nothing.
You can be critical of this reality, but you cannot expect the business owner to solve this problem unless everyone is on the same playing field.
This is why any border reforms must address business regulations, banking and insurance reform regulations and a host of other things.
This is why tightening the borders without addressing these realities will fail and why comprehensive reforms are necessary.
Dane's sarcasm was totally understood by these ears, and should be understood by all who care about this issue. The issue is indeed complicated, and trying to simplify it only defies logic.
Peach - great points and good reminders to everyone!
thanks very much
Hi, Seattle. My little contribution is not the analysis you and others bring to FR; copying and pasting is my forte. LOL
I am a good bit late to this thread but I like the idea of a positive thread that is aimed at solutions that go along with our obvious opposition to the current border problems.
Much has been said back and forth but I think that the vast majority of us can agree that there is a problem that needs addressed.
Many of us have let our elected officials know how we feel thru E mails, faxes, and even handwritten letters sent snail mail. Pressure is needed but I think as much that can be put on politicians is being applied. I offer that it is time to start on businesses.
Personally, as I have posted on this forum (and others), I take action that each person in this nation can take.
I have ended my purchases at Lowes stores and Sears stores (that means K mart also). Wherever I see a business marketing (read:pandering) to the illegal and non english speaking population, I take my business elsewhere. I must add Tyson chicken to the list as well. We all know in our local areas who is doing this and the best pressure we can offer is our lack of patronizing their businesses.
Lowes strikes me as a pointed case and I often use them as my example. This because I think a HOME IMPROVEMENT center that caters to the illegal/non English speaking population says it all. I mean really now, lets think about it. Why would a company that sells home building materials be marketing to people that are not supposed to be here in the first place?
Not to mention, that yesterday when I was out and about I saw a "HELP WANTED" sign out in front of my Local Lowes Store. Of course it was in Spanish! So not only are they seeking to sell product to non english speakers they are also actively seeking to employ them as well.
People, all politics aside, all border arguments aside, the very best way to get a message across that will force some party to listen is the mighty American Dollar.
The most effective way to deal with employers that make the whole problem go is to show them thru their "wallets" that the largest voting block in this nation has had enough. Do not shop there and they will notice very quickly. Show resolve and they will change their actions.
I agree that their are many facets to this issue and the solution containes many parts. The first part is to stop the employment that illegals seek. If the law will not be enforced in this regard, then people can do the enforcing with their spending.
The second action is dealing with the healthcare/public aid angle. We can be humane by providing medical services to illegals so long as we pack them up on the spot and we send them home. Along with the illegals, we should deliver a C.O.D. bill for the medical care and our overhead for delivering a citizen to its host government.
If the host government does not want to pay the costs we send then so be it. We should levy any of the particular countries assets that exist here and we should also suspend or even revoke any legal immigration numbers from that nation until such time as they adhere to our policy of paying for their citizens that cost our nation its treasure.
Any business caught knowingly hiring illegals should lose their business license for three month sets, adding three months for each additional infraction. Now many people claim there is no way to hold employers accountable for this action. To them I say, well, Time for a REAL ID that ends all those problems. To those that say a real ID is a violation of liberty, I say look in your wallet or your purse and take notice that you already have various forms of ID right now. What is so bad about replacing all the redundant ID with one that actually functions.
Military, local police, minutemen, and every other group that can operate by the same set of rules should be brought to bare for securing our northern and southern borders. All of us are Americans and this issue affects us all. I do not see one group that should take of this, Unless you will call that group AMERICANS working together to secure our Nation.
Anyone that does not want to secure our borders isn't an American at all. In reality they seek to delete that term totally, even if they will not admit it. As a great man once said, it is time to lay the cards on the table.
Many more things will ned to be done but I think they have to be detemined as we move forward on what I have already written.
First thing you need (and you can't do anything without it) is a national (tamper proof) ID card. Once you have that all things are posible. There is not reason to have troops on the border if you have a national ID card that contains your SS number. That is really all you need. The card can be linked to Federal and State databases that contain info about you. Can vote, can work, can work with children, etc.
In this case, it would be H R Clintoned...even worse.
You are boycotting stores that hire Spanish speakers without any knowledge of their immigration status or even if they are natural born Americans.
Boycotts are stupid, unless you are truly against anyone speaking a different language that your own, and that would appear a bit silly, don't ya think?
You two still don't get it - it's simple economics. Look, total employment is around 144m; of that total, let's assume that around 12m are illegals (see, I'm including all of them as productive individuals) - that's 8% of the total workforce.
Doesn't that coorelate nicely to GDP growth over a similar period? That because additional people create additional demand for goods & services. And even better, the supply of labor decreases the cost ie inflation remains LOW.
In point of fact, if we allowed another 20m productive individuals entry, we'd see even more growth and lower inflation. This is why pro-Bush business supporters cite immigration (both illegal & legal) as good for the economy. And you know what? They're RIGHT.
So here we have a highly principled man (Bush) that (a) believes in the market economy, (b) has faith in Hispanic individuals, and (c) is focused on a potential nuclear war with an Islamic nut. The end result is we have an open-border and However, there's a little problem with illegal immigration from a certain country that (a) lacks skills [stuck at the bottom of the value-chain; (b) comes in huge waves; and (c) refuses to assimilate. These pose long-term structural problems to the very ESSENCE of our republic, notwithstanding current issues in the ME.
It is the future of our country that has Bush supporters screaming for change.
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