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Schwarzenegger Tries New Script - California Governor Reaches Out to Democrats, Independents
Washington Post ^ | May 29, 2006 | John Pomfret and Sonya Geis

Posted on 05/29/2006 10:02:56 AM PDT by calcowgirl

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is attempting a political comeback as he faces reelection this year, courting Democrats and independent voters by distancing himself from President Bush and pushing an expensive bond proposal to rebuild California's levees, schools and highways.

Schwarzenegger, one of the nation's most prominent Republicans, has criticized Bush's plan to dispatch the National Guard to the Mexican border. He has appointed Democrats to key state jobs. In recent weeks, he helped engineer a bipartisan compromise to get the $37 billion bond proposal on the November ballot, traveling the state with Democratic legislative leaders to promote it. And he has embraced other causes popular with California's Democratic voters, including an increase in the minimum wage and a cap on greenhouse gases.

Last November, Schwarzenegger's fortunes looked grim. California's voters handed him a stunning loss in a special election that would have changed several state laws and given him more political power.

That election night, Schwarzenegger vowed to change and to show voters that "I am not to the right or left, that I just see things best for California."

Since then he has courted the public-service unions that exert enormous influence on California politics and that had spent millions to try to defeat his plans. Schwarzenegger has tried to smooth relations with the California Nurses Association, whose demonstrators dogged him at public appearances last year, by dropping his quest to overturn state nurse-patient ratios.

Buoyed by an additional $5 billion in tax revenue, he has pledged to increase education spending by billions of dollars, hoping to patch strained ties with the California Teachers Association. And he has put off a significant overhaul of California's troubled prison system, leading the California Correctional Peace Officers Association to delay plans to open a $10 million war chest for attack ads against him.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: arnoldlegacy; caelection; calelection; calgov2006; schwarzenegger; script
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1 posted on 05/29/2006 10:02:58 AM PDT by calcowgirl
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To: calcowgirl

Long story short...he's a Democrat.


2 posted on 05/29/2006 10:05:09 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: calcowgirl

Schwarzenegger is in over his head. Return to movies, Arnold. Take on The Rock in Terminator 4 or something.


3 posted on 05/29/2006 10:05:22 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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To: calcowgirl

Well, considering the demographics of CA, that's they only way he can get reelected, especially after his conservative special election propositions got defeated.

CALIFORNIA VOTER AND PARTY PROFILES

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/JTF_VoterProfilesJTF.pdf


"The Democratic Party currently has an advantage of 1.4 million voters over the Republican Party (7.1 million to 5.7 million) or 9 percentage points (43% to 34%), according to the Secretary of State.

Among those most likely to vote in this year’s elections, Democrats outnumber Republicans by a 7-point margin (44% to 37%), while 15 percent of likely voters are registered as independents.

... the fact that independents are more likely to lean toward Democrats than Republicans (42% to 28%) tends to work to the disadvantage of the GOP in statewide elections."


4 posted on 05/29/2006 10:05:52 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: calcowgirl
One Democrat appointed by Schwarzenegger is Joe Nuñez, on the state Board of Education. Nuñez, a vocal supporter of Angelides, jokingly refers to himself as "the enemy within."

"I think it's really important to recognize that the staff that he surrounded himself with [before the special election] is completely gone," Nuñez said. "I think that his new staff and his new advisers are looking down the road at the next election and how they can position themselves to win this horse race."

The democrats can't lose--all three contenders in the race are liberals.

5 posted on 05/29/2006 10:06:38 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: NittanyLion

Perhaps you should learn more about his Dem opponents and compare Arnold's positions to theirs.

Here is where Arnold's opponents, the Dems stand on issues.

Remember it's Arnold or them.

"Westly and Angelides were twins on the McCain-Kennedy immigration bill (yes), fully funding education (yes), affordable housing (of course), health care (yes), same-sex marriage (yes), and signing a bill to give driver's licenses to illegal immigrants (yes)"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1631511/posts

WESTLY:

In the “Stand” spot, Westly says, “I’m Steve Westly – before I ask for your vote, I owe it to you to tell you where I stand. I’m strongly pro-choice and I believe protecting our environment is fundamental. As governor, I’ll make education my top priority.” Then the announcer adds, “Steve Westly. Require big corporations to provide adequate health insurance, expand the Healthy Families Program, incentives for hybrid vehicles and solar energy, stop any new offshore drilling.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1627880/posts


=====

ANGELIDES:
Angelides calls himself a champion of "progressive values." As state treasurer, he has pushed public pension funds to dump tobacco stocks, invest in urban renewal projects and pressure corporations into cleaning up the environment. A close ally of labor, he also supports abortion rights, gay marriage, gun control and driver's licenses for illegal immigrants.

If he makes it into a general-election race, his call for increasing taxes could pose problems; Schwarzenegger has been steadfast in opposing higher taxes.

http://www.calcoast.org/news/cpr0060122.html

=====

In the meantime, Arnold:

"They're focused on the Capitol's perpetual war between business and the big four Democratic Party subfactions: labor unions, personal injury lawyers, environmentalists and consumer protection advocates.

The past two years have been bleak ones for the Big 4 because Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has aligned himself with the California Chamber of Commerce and other business groups, rejecting nearly all of the measures they had dubbed "job killers." Schwarzenegger and business, moreover, bulldozed the Legislature into approving an overhaul of worker's compensation that authorities say is reducing employers' costs by $15 billion a year. It was the most significant advance either side had made in the war in many years and one that Democrats and their allies now want to undo. "

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1627876/posts


====

Arnold also vetoed the homsexual marriage bill, which Anglides and Westly are on record of supporting.

Arnold made the legislature rescind the drivers licenses for illegals bill, then when they put it on his desk again, he vetoed it. Angelides and Westly are on the record FOR the bill.

Arnold categorically refused to raise taxes, despite Dem pressure and his Dem opponents are proposing huge tax increases.

There are huge differences with major impacts on CA, between Arnold and the Dems.


7 posted on 05/29/2006 10:07:53 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: FairOpinion

Look! It's the Baghdad Bob of the California threads!


8 posted on 05/29/2006 10:07:59 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

I guess you lose on facts and issues and the only thing left for you is to resort to personal insults. That's an admission that YOU lost the argument. Thanks for admitting it.


9 posted on 05/29/2006 10:09:04 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: FairOpinion

The same demographics existed when Ronald Reagan (R), George Deukmejian (R), and Pete Wilson (R) were elected.

Did they hire all democrats, go on borrowing sprees, make record increases in spending, and join the Greens in promoting envirowackoism?

Abandoning the Republican platform is not the way to win, unless you become a member of the Democratic Party.


10 posted on 05/29/2006 10:09:59 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: FairOpinion

Please quit spamming this on every thread.


11 posted on 05/29/2006 10:11:52 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: calcowgirl; NittanyLion

I am not spamming. People keep trying to spread misconceptions, and I am CORRECTING them.

What IS spamming is when people keep posting "Arnold is a Democrat", with NOTHING to back up their assertions.


Funny, you don't seem to have a problem with that.


12 posted on 05/29/2006 10:14:41 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: FairOpinion
I guess you lose on facts and issues and the only thing left for you is to resort to personal insults. That's an admission that YOU lost the argument. Thanks for admitting it.

I didn't lose anything, toots.

You're a die-hard GOP groupie who believe that we must support Republicans regardless if they're more liberal than Dems. You don't care that your support is counterproductive or flawed, so therefore there's no need for me to keep correcting your spin.

Do us all a favor and leave discussion of the real issues that impact conservatives to grown-ups.

13 posted on 05/29/2006 10:18:02 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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To: calcowgirl

Twenty years ago the Democrats weren't as far left as they are today, rmember the "Reagan Democrats"?


14 posted on 05/29/2006 10:19:40 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Those of us who live in California and have the chance to vote MUST choose Arnold. It really will be hell-in-a-handbasket time if the Dems get total control with the Governorship as well as the legislature, not to mention the union bosses and the illegals. I was talking to a very liberal friend who preferred a particular Dem and who hated the thought of Arnold staying in the Governor's chair. If he irritated her, he's the best choice.


15 posted on 05/29/2006 10:21:18 AM PDT by Moonmad27
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Please explain to me how it helps the conservative cause to elect a leftist Dem as Governor of CA -- almost every other statewide office is already in Dem hands, including having an overwhelmingly Dem Legislature.

How does that help conservatives? I can hardly wait for your erudite response.


16 posted on 05/29/2006 10:21:54 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: calcowgirl

Arnold is a joke- he'll espouse whatever position he thinks will keep his sorry butt in Sacramento. He should be ashamed of himself.


17 posted on 05/29/2006 10:24:06 AM PDT by Altair333 (Red Rover, Red Rover, Send Mexico Right Over)
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To: FairOpinion
Well, considering the demographics of CA, that's they only way he can get reelected,

Oh brother. Are you still chanting that mantra? Let's all re-register. There's no point in being Republican anymore.

18 posted on 05/29/2006 10:26:38 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan (California bashers will be called out)
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To: calcowgirl
Schwarzenegger Tries New Script - California Governor Reaches Out to Democrats, Independents

This is only news to the WaPo.

Susan Kennedy, Arnold's chief of staff for the last five months or so is a lifelong liberal Democrat.

19 posted on 05/29/2006 10:30:26 AM PDT by RJL
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To: calcowgirl
There's a big difference between "reaching out" to them and "rolling over" for them.

Arnie - like many in the GOP - don't seem to know there is a difference.

20 posted on 05/29/2006 10:33:21 AM PDT by Gritty (Liberals are spineless suckups. Don't insult my intelligence by telling me they're brave - Ann Coult)
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To: FairOpinion
"Remember it's Arnold or them."


Hmmm ... Ever wonder if your wife thought the same thing, to herself, when she said yes after you proposed?



21 posted on 05/29/2006 10:33:29 AM PDT by G.Mason (Others have died for my freedom; now this is my mark ... Marine Corporal Jeffrey Starr, KIA 04-30-05)
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To: calcowgirl

Since Arnold is going to win the nomination anyway, I'm voting for Newman in the primary.


22 posted on 05/29/2006 10:36:12 AM PDT by ZGuy
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To: FairOpinion
Please explain to me how it helps the conservative cause to elect a leftist Dem as Governor of CA -- almost every other statewide office is already in Dem hands, including having an overwhelmingly Dem Legislature.

Had you guys not went ahead with that stupid recall campaign, Davis would have crashed and burned and a genuine conservative would have risen from the ashes and implemented real reforms.

The state needs long-term, fiscally and socially conservative solutions instead of the band-aids the Governator has frequently used.

23 posted on 05/29/2006 10:38:55 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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To: G.Mason

Uh, FairOpinion is a woman...


24 posted on 05/29/2006 10:39:24 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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To: Gritty

Arnold put the very conservative special election propositions on the ballot, taking on the Dems and the unions, trying to control spending, and what did conservatives do? Stayed home, or even voted WITH the Dems, against Arnold's propositions. And now they are running around blaming Arnold.


25 posted on 05/29/2006 10:39:41 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

"Had you guys not went ahead with that stupid recall campaign, Davis would have crashed and burned and a genuine conservative would have risen from the ashes and implemented real reforms. "


===

Sure, and if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.


26 posted on 05/29/2006 10:40:42 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: FairOpinion
I am not spamming. People keep trying to spread misconceptions, and I am CORRECTING them.

ROFL! That's a keeper! lol.

27 posted on 05/29/2006 10:41:01 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: NittanyLion
"There have been three stages of Arnold," said Bruce Cain, political science professor at the University of California at Berkeley. There was "the initial cooperative stage when he first came to office." Then came a stage in 2005, when Schwarzenegger challenged the state's influential Democratic interests. "And now we have the Pat Brown incarnation, which is the more cooperative incarnation," Cain said, referring to the state's popular Democratic governor in the 1960s who last proposed large infrastructure projects.

Just put your wet finger in the air & move accordingly, but Arnie, don't call yourself a conservative.

28 posted on 05/29/2006 10:42:58 AM PDT by Digger
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist; G.Mason

There you go again, trying to have a discussion about my gender. I have not disclosed it, ever, and you are presenting your guess, as if it was based on some actual knowledge.

You have no way of knowing and I am not disclosing it.

People should comment on my posts, not on who or what they think I might be.


29 posted on 05/29/2006 10:43:47 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: calcowgirl

Excuse me .. this isn't a new track - this is the same old track. When is he going to get around to leaning MY DIRECTION! I will only be voting for him for one reason - the dem candidates are worse .. but I'm not voting for him because I necessarily support him.

I didn't vote for him to begin with.


30 posted on 05/29/2006 10:44:17 AM PDT by CyberAnt (Drive-by Media: Fake news, fake documents, fake polls)
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To: FairOpinion
Sure, and if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Ah yes, sarcasm.

Have fun living under Schwarzenegger's half-assed "reforms" while simultaneously being a tool for the Dems.

31 posted on 05/29/2006 10:45:06 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: FairOpinion
There you go again, trying to have a discussion about my gender.

I remember a while ago when it was mentioned and I was correcting the other FReeper who thought you were a guy.

I didn't mean to offend you and from here on out I won't bring it up.

33 posted on 05/29/2006 10:47:22 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

If Stalin had an R after his name he's vote for him.

Arnie either gets liberal socialists to vote for him or he's gone.


34 posted on 05/29/2006 10:52:46 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: FairOpinion

Nice summary. I'd much rather have Arnold with a sidekick like Tom McClintock then either Angelides or Westly.





35 posted on 05/29/2006 10:53:51 AM PDT by bordergal
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To: RJL
Susan Kennedy, Arnold's chief of staff for the last five months or so is a lifelong liberal Democrat.

The article was a two pager that mentioned many more of his Democrat (and ex-Democrat) appointees. The list is long. From article (paraphrased):

Susan Kennedy, a Democrat and abortion-rights advocate who served as chief of staff for former governor Gray Davis (D). (replaced Patricia Clarey, veteran Republican)

Linda Adams, a longtime Democratic aide, named to head the state's Environmental Protection Agency. Adams's most recently was Steve Westly's chief of staff.

Matthew Dowd recruited to run his reelection campaign. Former Democratic strategist who was instrumental in sending two Democrats from California to the Senate in 1992.

Joe Nuñez, Democrat, appointed by Schwarzenegger to the state Board of Education. Nuñez. Vocal supporter of Angelides, jokingly refers to himself as "the enemy within."

Barely more than half of Schwarzenegger's appointments to jobs, commissions and boards have been Republicans.

The majority of his appointees to the state's Air Resources Board, one of the most powerful anti-pollution bodies in the country, are Democrats.

Almost half of his judicial appointees are Democrats or independents.

The article does not mention those rabid democrats he has had at his side from day one, such as Bonnie Reiss and Terry Tamminen. Or Patrick Henning (labor leader). The list goes on.
36 posted on 05/29/2006 10:55:28 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

We get a Lost Angeles TV station here and with it the ads for people running.... it's scary, but Arnold is the best of California's choices.


37 posted on 05/29/2006 10:58:12 AM PDT by Arizona Carolyn
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To: FairOpinion

"voted WITH the Dems, against Arnold's propositions"

You're damn right I did, they were worse than doing nothing.


38 posted on 05/29/2006 10:58:29 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: Moonmad27
Those of us who live in California and have the chance to vote MUST choose Arnold. It really will be hell-in-a-handbasket time if the Dems get total control with the Governorship as well as the legislature, not to mention the union bosses and the illegals.

A voice of reason in a sea of Mopey DICCS

Democrats in Conservative Clothing

39 posted on 05/29/2006 10:58:59 AM PDT by b9 ("the [evil Marxist liberal socialist Democrat Party] alternative is unthinkable" ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: FairOpinion
Twenty years ago the Democrats weren't as far left as they are today, rmember the "Reagan Democrats"?

Twenty years ago the Republican Party leadership wasn't infiltrated and infested by a bunch of spineless wimps who think the only way to beat a Democrat is to BE one! Perhaps if they quit running from the platform, and embraced it, then we could start winning based on real ideas and make some progress. Instead, we sink deeper into the abyss as our supposed "Republican" officials push us further and further to the left.

40 posted on 05/29/2006 10:59:30 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: ZGuy
Since Arnold is going to win the nomination anyway, I'm voting for Newman in the primary.

I haven't decided yet. I'm leaning toward the Switchman. :-)

41 posted on 05/29/2006 11:01:25 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: FairOpinion
Arnold put the very conservative special election propositions on the ballot, taking on the Dems and the unions, trying to control spending...

They weren't conservative at all, FO. And you know it. His own Finance chief said they wouldn't control spending. In fact, with all of this "new unexpected revenue", do you know what his proposition would have done? It would have just about guaranteed that we spend even MORE in the future.

42 posted on 05/29/2006 11:05:30 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: Moonmad27

No we don't have to choose Arnold. There are several other republicans running in the primary, vote for one of them! I did. Get rid of this left leaning wind bag who can only talk big and not actually do anything or stand by his principles. I am tired of republicans caving in with the excuse about "being better than a democrat" when there really is no difference in a RINO and a Dem. As for the idiotic statement in the article that independents will go for dems, I don't believe it since a good number of them are libertarians.


43 posted on 05/29/2006 11:06:07 AM PDT by calex59 (No country can survive multiculturalism. Dual cultures don't mix, history has taught us that!)
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To: Digger
"And now we have the Pat Brown incarnation, which is the more cooperative incarnation," Cain said, referring to the state's popular Democratic governor in the 1960s who last proposed large infrastructure projects.

Except Pat Brown did it without indebting the state to enormous amounts of money until kingdom come. Schwarzenegger wants to do it by big-time BORROWING and selling off state interests to public-private partnerships.

44 posted on 05/29/2006 11:07:25 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: CyberAnt
I won't be voting for him in the primary. He has not earned my vote.
I haven't decided what I will do in November. I only know that I will NOT vote for Westly or Angelides.
45 posted on 05/29/2006 11:10:09 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: FairOpinion
What IS spamming is when people keep posting "Arnold is a Democrat", with NOTHING to back up their assertions.

LOL! Just because you'd rather stay blind to reality doesn't mean there is "NOTHING to back up" my assertions. To wit:

distanced himself from President Bush
criticized Bush's plan to dispatch the National Guard to the Mexican border
appointed Democrats to key state jobs
helped engineer a bipartisan compromise to get the $37 billion bond proposal on the November ballot
embraced...an increase in the minimum wage
embraced...a cap on greenhouse gases
pledged to increase education spending by billions of dollars
put off a significant overhaul of California's troubled prison system
replaced his chief of staff, Patricia Clarey, a veteran Republican, with Susan Kennedy, a Democrat and abortion-rights advocate who served as chief of staff for former governor Gray Davis
named Linda Adams, a longtime Democratic aide, to head the state's Environmental Protection Agency

And those are just from this article. Did you even bother to read it before ignorantly claiming that I don't have the facts on my side?

46 posted on 05/29/2006 11:13:35 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: calcowgirl; FairOpinion

 

This graphic never gets old!

 

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER - TOTAL RINO

Courtesy of Strange Cosmos
 

47 posted on 05/29/2006 11:15:32 AM PDT by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: NittanyLion; FairOpinion
And those are just from this article. Did you even bother to read it before ignorantly claiming that I don't have the facts on my side?

Of course he/she/it* didn't read the article. Adding to your list, see Post #36, also from the article.

*FO, since you won't acknowledge your sex, how should we refer to you?

48 posted on 05/29/2006 11:20:15 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: Incorrigible

Another good one is the Vodka Bottle - "Absolut Liberal".
I wish I had bookmarked it.


49 posted on 05/29/2006 11:24:33 AM PDT by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: calcowgirl

I am disappointed in the direction the Governor has taken on environmental regulation. Resource users are under attack in my county by regulators forcing impossible demands under the California Endangered Species Act, Porter Colgne Water Quality Act, Air Quality, and new fire regulations.

The latest is the State Water Resources Control Board eleventh hour attempt, at the urging of a faction of radical and extreme environmentalists, to seize pre and post-1914 adjudicated water use rights for flows for salmon. This is not even supported by the recommendations and scientific review (CEQA) for the TMDL by the regional Board. It is also an out and out taking of private property for public use without just compensation. In addition, the adjudication clearly places jurisdiction with the Superior Court.

Things are far worse than they ever were under Davis. The Governor has failed to appoint rational Republicans to Agencies and Boards and insists on appointing extreme environmentalists. I don't know if it is intentional, but what they will end up accomplishing is the subdivision and development of thousands of acres of productive farmland from folks who can not possibly comply with their demands. Heck, our County can't even comply - we haven't the resources.

Unfortunately, the Democratic candidates seem even more rabidly environmental than the Governor. The Gov. has some stands that are closer to the Conservative - worker's comp reform, holding the line on taxes, and I will likely vote for him. I just wish he understood what his environmental policies were doing to rural California and the harm to the people and their small communities that he is causing through them.


50 posted on 05/29/2006 11:25:27 AM PDT by marsh2
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