In a better time, a less stupid time, this investigation would be concluded in a day and John Murtha would be flogged and dragged through the streets. I don't know if that time ever existed but it's sure nice to daydream.
Ping
I’ve been in Iraq for about 18 months now performing construction management. It is simply not possible for me to exaggerate the massive amounts of lies we wade through every single day. There is no way - absolutely none - to determine facts from bulls*** from these people.
To be fair to individual Iraqis, lying and deception is an integral part of their culture. It is not even considered lying to them; it is more akin to being clever - like keeping your cards close to your chest. And they don’t just lie to westerners. They believe that appearances--saving face--are of paramount importance. They lie to each other all the time about anything in order to leverage others on a deal or manipulate an outcome of some sort or cover up some major or minor embarrassment. It’s just how they do things, period. I’m not trying to disparage them here. I get along great with a lot of them. But even among those that I like, if something happens I’ll get 50 wildly different stories, every time. There’s no comparison to it in any other part of the world where I’ve worked. The lying is ubiquitous and constant.
This is extremely true - People who have not been to Iraq (and even the ME to a large extent) simply don't understand how true this is (to a large extent among the average citizen) - His "they think they are being clever" comment when they lie is 100% accurate -
Ping -
Here's some more interesting info on Safa courtesty of Velveeta and boxerblues.
Strange indeed..like this one who has now had a total of 4 versions of what happened
Safa Younis Salim, the 12-year-old, said she lay on the ground, covered with her sister's blood, and pretended to be dead while her family died around her. Her sister's blood spurted fast; it was like a water tap, she said.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003031922_hadithatale01.html
Safa Younis (also seen spelled as Yunis) Salim.
There was one survivor, Safa Younis Salim, 13, who in an interview said she lived by faking her death. "I pretended that I was dead when my brother's body fell on me and he was bleeding like a faucet," she said.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418464,00.html
Only 13-year-old Safa Younis lived -- saved, she said, by her mother's blood spilling onto her, making her look dead when she fell, limp, in a faint.
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060527/NEWS/605270390/1039
Twelve-year-old Safa says she survived by hiding under the bed.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13053200/
I'm not saying one way or the other about this case, but it sure is curious that the MSM seem to pick and choose when to believe the government, and when to do their own looking-into of cases.
In this one they've already decided guilt, and now it's up to other sources to prove otherwise. If the finding is of innocence, the MSM will have helped stir up anti-American feeling in Iraq and the Middle East. You'd think they were Al Jazeera or something!
Again, if they're guilty, they're guilty, but isn't the purpose of these investigations and trials to determine that? And shouldn't the MSM be actively investigating ALL sides of the issue?
or is that too much for them to handle, and we should get some, I dunno, JOURNALISTS to look into this for them?
Ping
hadtha bump
bump for later
Often western media outlets depend on freelance Arab reporters with questionable loyalties to work combat zones.
From post #26 on this thread from earlier tonight:
Haditha Doctor Was Arrested, Hates US Too http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1642075/posts From Sweetness and Light Blog via LGF.
Haditha Reporter Was Jailed By US, Shares Name With Source June 1st, 2006
Given the breathless coverage (actually only repetition of the same paltry facts) from our one party media about the civilian deaths in Haditha, I am surprised that we have heard nothing about the curious background of one of the first journalists to report the story, Ali Omar Abrahem al-Mashhadani, from the "restive town" of Ramadi.
It turns out Mr. al-Mashhadani might not have felt the kindliest intentions towards the US, having been imprisoned for five months mere weeks before his Haditha scoop.
Al-Mashhadani was detained because images found on his camera and because of his t"ies to the insurgents," according to US officials.
Indeed, al-Mashhadani has since been detained by the US again, for two weeks. In fact he was only released today.
26 posted on 06/01/2006 8:25:41 PM MDT by bordergal
Get used to these "massacre" gigs. The MSM just showed the people who want to kill us how to get Americans REALLY tired of the war on terror. The Al-Qaeda boys will be staging one of these "massacres" for their cohorts in the MSM EVERYDAY from here on out. This is how you "win" wars. Ask the North Vietnamese. I heard the coke addicts over at the BBC have a videotape of 11 "civilians" who were "massacred" by a renegade band of marauding Marines. This is just the beginning of the end. America is on the verge of deciding to cut and run from the war on terror. The MSM and their DemocRAT massas successfully managed to turn Iraq into "another Vietnam." At least on the "homefront" that is. To those of us who remember the late 60s and early 70s, this is like deja vu all over again.
For this incident, give them $5,000 and their pick of Madeleine Albright, Helen Thomas, or Janet Reno.
Oh, never mind!
Sort of like the culture at ABCCBSCNN.
All you have to do to distort something to your political ends is to (a) quote people from both sides of a story, (b) give credibility to those who support your version, (c) disregard or sneer at those opposite. Result: CNN, WP, NYT, etc. promote their agenda.
ping
"I didn't say we had made a mistake," Major Hyatt said, describing what he had told the city council member who was representing the victims. "I said I'm being told I can make payments for these 15 because they were deemed not to be involved in combat."
I wonder if being relatives of a member of the Haditha city council influenced the decision to declare those 15 Iraqis as "noncombatants".
Here is a question someone might want to ask:
Why if the Marines "cracked" and went on a "killing" rampage, did they do it this time? What was different here than all the other times they performed by the book?
Murtha ? do you have an answer?
"To be fair to individual Iraqis, lying and deception is an integral part of their culture. It is not even considered lying to them; it is more akin to being clever - like keeping your cards close to your chest. And they don’t just lie to westerners. They believe that appearances--saving face--are of paramount importance. They lie to each other all the time about anything in order to leverage others on a deal or manipulate an outcome of some sort or cover up some major or minor embarrassment. It’s just how they do things, period.
"I’m not trying to disparage them here. I get along great with a lot of them. But even among those that I like, if something happens I’ll get 50 wildly different stories, every time. There’s no comparison to it in any other part of the world where I’ve worked. The lying is ubiquitous and constant.
"Obviously in the case of these soldiers, the “witnesses” were lying with malice for profit - saving face had nothing to do with it.
"But every Westerner here has been taken totally by surprise by the lies upon lies upon BS and lies. It makes it impossible to form any agreements, impossible to plan anything, and impossible to investigate anything….