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Understanding Islam: The Verse of The Sword (Great Read!)
Family Security Foundation ^ | 6/22/06 | Scott McKay

Posted on 06/25/2006 11:04:06 AM PDT by wagglebee

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the jizya (poor-due), then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
-          Qu’ran, 9:5
 
If the above might look familiar, it’s known as Ayat al-Sayf, or the Verse of the Sword. And unfortunately, it’s quite a significant passage in governing the relationship between Muslims and the rest of the world.
 
Obviously, as is true with any passage from the Holy Books of the world’s great religions, this one is open to various interpretations. But for nearly 1400 years, it has provided a major impetus in fueling the imperialist zeal behind Islamic jihad in the military sense most of us understand that word to signify.
 
In fact, many prominent and mainstream Islamic scholars throughout the length of that 1400 years, including a prominent, active Saudi cleric named Sheikh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajid (whose pronouncements can be found at www.islam-qa.com), not only fail to denounce this rather noxious passage but claim that because it was laid down as part of the last chapters, or Suras, of the Qu’ran, it abrogates or negates some 124 other Qu’ranic passages seen as more tolerant and friendly to those of us who aren’t Muslims.
 
It would be easy – and comforting – to dismiss the rantings of people like al-Munajid as simply crackpot theology not informing any significant proportion of the Muslim world. More moderate Muslim elements say that the Verse of the Sword only really applied to pagans and polytheists who tooled around the Arabian deserts during Muhammad’s time in the 7th century. Other passages say that because Christians and Jews are “People of the Book” they shouldn’t be dealt with in such harsh terms.
 
But we dismiss this at our peril, for two main historical reasons.
 
First, we must remember that Islam has spread by the sword since its earliest days. Muslim armies, infused with the zeal of Qu’ranic verses like the one above, spread from Arabia in every direction until the Dar al-Islam, or Islamic community, stretched from Morocco and Spain in the Atlantic to Indonesia in the Pacific. And when those armies conquered a given territory and the usual three days of rape and pillae were finished, the survivors were given three choices, as loosely described in the Verse of the Sword – convert to Islam, pay the jizya, or face execution. In other words, this isn’t idle verse – it’s standard operating procedure. If it wasn’t, we might still call the place Constantinople and not Istanbul.
 
Second, once the forces of Islam had imposed their rule on a given territory and set about governing the population of that territory, the second option opened up the subjugated peoples to the wonderful world of what’s known as dhimmitude. A dhimmi, or “protected person,” is one who essentially accepts second-class citizenship. Paying the jizya, which is translated as a poll tax or poor-due and which is paid by non-Muslims to the Muslim governing authority, isn’t something you do with an American Express Card or a check. Those subject to the tax would under Islamic Sharia law have to physically appear to pay it on demand of the authority, and to submit to a particularly demeaning ceremony in accordance with Qu’ranic verse requiring that “they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (Qu’ran 9:29)
 
And being treated worse than the IRS typically treats folks in a tax audit isn’t all. According to Islamic tradition, dhimmis are forced to wear hairstyles and clothing identifying them as non-Muslim, forbidden from building structures taller than Muslims build, forbidden from displaying crosses or other religious symbols on churches and synagogues, ride on saddles or own weapons, among other things.
 
Being treated in such a manner over time tends to have the effect of making it inconvenient – to say the least – to resist conversion to Islam in a newly-Islamic country. This largely explains how there was once a thriving Christian majority in most of what is now the Islamic world – North Africa, Egypt, what is now the Holy Land, Asia Minor and Central Asia, for example – and now there are scant few Christians or Jews in any of those areas.
 
Dhimmitude is largely a thing of the past, because Islamic rule has had a rather tough run over the past century or so – in particular since Kemal Ataturk led Turkey away from Sharia and toward a secular republic in 1924. But on the other hand you won’t see any Catholic churches in Riyadh or Tehran, and the occasional stories about interfaith relations coming out of places like Pakistan and Indonesia hardly inspire confidence that diversity and tolerance in Islamic societies is a major strength.
 
What’s the point of this little history and theology lesson? Specifically this – when you ask “What do these people want from us?” after seeing the standard soliloquies of Osama bin Laden or bombs going off in front of a church, a pizza parlor or a bus stop someplace, it’s nothing more than people acting on a verse they saw in the Qu’ran.
 
And unfortunately, the interpretations of that verse which create the atrocities we see aren’t extreme. Fundamentalist, maybe. But not extreme.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: islam; jihadists; prop; religionofpeace; rop; terrorism; trop
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And this is why we cannot "reason" with them, we cannot "appease" them, we must destroy the jihadists.
1 posted on 06/25/2006 11:04:08 AM PDT by wagglebee
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To: wagglebee

Dhimmitude(with taxes and no guns) sounds like the democrat 'plan'...lol


2 posted on 06/25/2006 11:11:28 AM PDT by penelopesire
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To: wagglebee

Curious -

He writes about a quote that he admits is open to various interpretations, but starts his quote with " Then, ".

It would seem that the only way to begin to understand what this line is sayig is to have some reference about what the " Then, " refers to.


3 posted on 06/25/2006 11:11:37 AM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: wagglebee

Best presentation I've seen...spot on.


4 posted on 06/25/2006 11:15:07 AM PDT by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: wagglebee

Interesting how they've put the Koran into chapter and verse, just like the Bible ... IOW - making it out to be like the Bible, but isn't the true word of God ......


5 posted on 06/25/2006 11:19:25 AM PDT by SkyDancer ("The Americans on Flight 93 did more to counter terrorism than the Democrats have done in 4 years")
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To: wagglebee; All
Good find!

You may be interested in a response I posted earlier this morning here.

The thread is Home front fears in war on terror ~

6 posted on 06/25/2006 11:24:45 AM PDT by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: RS

Read the rest of it ..the author clearly states the significance of these abominable words.


7 posted on 06/25/2006 11:25:18 AM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: wagglebee
“What do these people want from us?”


8 posted on 06/25/2006 11:27:43 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: wagglebee

Enemy of islm bump


9 posted on 06/25/2006 11:34:03 AM PDT by B.O. Plenty (Islam, liberalism and abortions are terminal..)
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To: eleni121

The only problem is that you CANNOT understand these words without taking into account the " Then, "

For example -

Then, as the clock struck midnight, he threw the switch and electricity coursed through her body.


What does this mean ?

It is some diabolical killer ?

... a legal execution of a diabolical killer ?

.... or perhaps some strange way of describing a late-night emergency room defibrillation procedure ?



Back to the topic at hand -


How can he possibly deem others interpretation of the verse as not being extreme WITHOUT himself having a full understanding of what it says ?


10 posted on 06/25/2006 11:53:39 AM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: wagglebee

11 posted on 06/25/2006 11:58:58 AM PDT by anglian
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To: wagglebee
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them

How do you slay folks, and THEN take them captive????

12 posted on 06/25/2006 12:07:24 PM PDT by TheBattman (Islam (and liberalism)- the cult of a Cancer on Society)
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To: TheBattman

"How do you slay folks, and THEN take them captive????"

Good point - Now we have to take into account if the English translator truely understood what it was saying ...


13 posted on 06/25/2006 12:16:08 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: Tribune7

Is that the "prophet" Mohammed's true form???


14 posted on 06/25/2006 12:17:55 PM PDT by TheBattman (Islam (and liberalism)- the cult of a Cancer on Society)
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To: TheBattman

Yup, so if you think those Danish cartoons cause a flap . . .


15 posted on 06/25/2006 12:30:27 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: penelopesire
and when you think about Mt. Solodad.. its hard to imagine we haven't already been subdued..
16 posted on 06/25/2006 12:31:32 PM PDT by dalight
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To: RS
Now we have to take into account if the English translator truely understood what it was saying ...

Translations: AA - Ahmed Ali

NQ - The Noble Qur'an

PK - Pickthal

SH - Shakir

YU - Yusuf Ali

AA - But when these months, prohibited (for fighting), are over, slay the idolaters wheresoever you find them, and take them captive or besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every likely place. But if they repent and fulfil their devotional obligations and pay the zakat, then let them go their way, for God is forgiving and kind.

NQ - Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As- Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[]

PK - Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SH - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

YU - But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Muslims are ordered to fight all non-Muslims until they cease being non-Muslims via either conversion at swordpoint or payment of an oppressive tax.

17 posted on 06/25/2006 12:53:07 PM PDT by anglian
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Muhammad himself thought it was meaningless as he led his most important raids during the "forbidden" months. - Craig Winn(prophetofdoom.net)


18 posted on 06/25/2006 1:01:05 PM PDT by anglian
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To: anglian; TheBattman

But how do you reconsile TheBattman's very interesting point - How do you slay someone AND capture them ?

ALL of your translations use the same basic wording, yet what sense does it make ?

Obviously you can choose to ignore it, but then how can you honestly say that you understand what it it telling you ?


19 posted on 06/25/2006 1:22:42 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: anglian

Your " PROFITofDoom " neglects to source a lot of his statements... does he give a source for this one ?


20 posted on 06/25/2006 1:26:36 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

This may help you:

Quran 9:4

You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith.

PRECEDES

Qu’ran, 9:5

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the jizya (poor-due), then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.





21 posted on 06/25/2006 1:28:22 PM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: TheBattman

"...slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them..."

No "THEN"

By adding "then" you change the meaning. Have any idea why you added "then"?


22 posted on 06/25/2006 1:32:07 PM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: eleni121

Thanks -

this is a PERFECT example of the errors on the PROFITofDoom site ... it's NOT Quran 9:4

( you can check it for yourself elsewhere on YOUR Profit's site here - http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009 )


23 posted on 06/25/2006 1:36:39 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS
NO errors....The one I provided was from another site but is essentially the same...there are different ways of saying essentially the same thing...doncha know that?

The prophet of doom site you reference is excellent! On this page are the varying translations of the verse in question:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009
24 posted on 06/25/2006 1:51:40 PM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: eleni121

"The prophet of doom site you reference is excellent! On this page are the varying translations of the verse in question:"

Yep - If you dig in a pile, you might find gold - the resouces this PROFITofDoom lists are easy to get to.

Where did you get your wrong citation of 9:4 ? ( many sites have copied this PROFIT's words as if they were handed from God on tablets )

... and did you find any difference now that you've read the correct one ?


25 posted on 06/25/2006 1:57:06 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

Not wrong...just a different translation of the same bunk.


26 posted on 06/25/2006 2:54:31 PM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: wagglebee
For another fine article (38 pages) go to yourarmstoisrael.org and select "sermon notes" and pull up "The Final End Time Beast". I have also read "the Prophet of Doom" writings and recommend them.
27 posted on 06/25/2006 3:01:37 PM PDT by Lewite (Praise YAHWEH and Proclaim His Wonderful Name! Islam, the end time Beast-the harlot of Babylon.)
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To: eleni121

Nope wrong ... NO translation of the Koran that I have found shows this - are you suggesting that ALL these translations are so far off the beam on 9:4 ?


The PROFITofDoom appears to have created this by severely editing the translations of 9:2, but no matter, it's wrong calling it 9:4 and in doing so, conviently ignores the true impact of 9:4 on 9:5.


28 posted on 06/25/2006 3:12:25 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS
The PROFITofDoom appears to have created this by severely editing the translations of 9:2,

PROFETOFFDOOM.net - Qur’an 9:2 “You cannot weaken Allah or escape. Allah will disgrace the unbelievers and put those who reject Him to shame.”

USC version: 009.002,

YUSUFALI: Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

SHAKIR: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

29 posted on 06/25/2006 3:41:28 PM PDT by anglian
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To: RS
Here's some more quotes if u want to double check. http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405
30 posted on 06/25/2006 3:44:07 PM PDT by anglian
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To: anglian

Yep - you posted what I found - so ?

Would you care to get back to the original discussion of 9:4 being needed if you wish to understand 9:5 ?

... now that we can find the CORRECT 9:4


31 posted on 06/25/2006 3:54:02 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS
Profetofdoom: You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith.RS- Nope wrong ... NO translation of the Koran that I have found shows this

Guess you didn't look very hard.

009.003

YUSUFALI: If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

PICKTHAL: So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

SHAKIR: it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

32 posted on 06/25/2006 4:00:12 PM PDT by anglian
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To: anglian

Even better ... good job !

So do we agree now that the 9:4 "quote" is an error ?

If so, we can dispense with the wrong quote issue and get back on track -

Does the REAL 9:4 modify 9:5 ?


33 posted on 06/25/2006 4:03:27 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS
this is a PERFECT example of the errors on the PROFITofDoom site ... it's NOT Quran 9:4

Did the poster show it was?

9:4.

AA Except those idolaters with whom you have a treaty, who have not failed you in the least, nor helped anyone against you. Fulfil your obligations to them during the term (of the treaty). God loves those who take heed for themselves.

NQ Except those of the Mushrikûn with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allâh loves Al- Mattaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

PK Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

SH Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

YU (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. Source - http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009 Quran 009.004

YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

34 posted on 06/25/2006 4:10:23 PM PDT by anglian
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To: anglian

? see post 21 and

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4514


But in any case -

9:4 specifically shows that a treaty CAN be made with the idolaters, and God commands Islamics to honor the terms of the treaty.

This modifies 9:5 in a profound way - 9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.


35 posted on 06/25/2006 4:24:01 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS
9:4 specifically shows that a treaty CAN be made with the idolaters, and God commands Islamics to honor the terms of the treaty.

This modifies 9:5 in a profound way - 9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.

Treaties, hmm? I wonder what the terms of such a treaty would be. I also wonder whether there are actually any non-Muslims who currently enjoy the forebearance commanded by 9:4.

Can you list any examples of non-Islamic peoples with whom Islam is *not* at war? Let me be clear... I'm not talking about the people who are currently (and fortunately) being ignored by the militant Muslims, but rather those with whom some sort of peace agreement has been formalized. Does any such relationship exist, anywhere on the planet?

36 posted on 06/25/2006 4:54:19 PM PDT by Charles Martel (Free Travis!)
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To: RS

9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.

----

LOL! Was mohammad EVER at peace with ANYONE?


37 posted on 06/25/2006 4:54:42 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: RS
-and God commands Islamics to honor the terms of the treaty.

LOL

Qur’an 009.003 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.” In other words, Allah and Muhammad can't be trusted.

38 posted on 06/25/2006 5:00:58 PM PDT by anglian
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To: anglian
Sorry it is 009.001

YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances

PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

SHAKIR: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

39 posted on 06/25/2006 5:08:28 PM PDT by anglian
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To: RS

The Koran tells how Mohammed made a peace treaty with the Jews of a certain city in the Arabian peninsula. But within two years, he found a pretext to suddenly break the treaty, attack his surprised victims, and then behead all the Jewish men in the public square. Mohammed's tactic is held up by the Muslim Arabs as a hallowed model. It is enshrined in Muslim legal practice which has it that Muslims are not obligated for long to honor peace treaties with non Muslims -- infidels.

The concept of JIHAD or Holy War has been understood by most of us but there is another concept in the Koran with which few of us are familiar. But it is essential to understand this concept when relating to Moslems. That is the law of HUDAIBIYA which dates back to Muhammad and states clearly that "Muslims are permitted to lie and break agreements with non-Muslims." This applies to business, personal life and politics. Would a peace treaty be worth much if the other party is Moslem?


http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/muhammad.html


40 posted on 06/25/2006 5:13:11 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Charles Martel

" I also wonder whether there are actually any non-Muslims who currently enjoy the forebearance commanded by 9:4. "

Foturnately, what you wonder dosen't matter -

The premise here was that Islam commands Muslims to kill all non-muslims due to this verse ... it dosen't.

The billion or so Muslims who are NOT planning ways to kill you tonight can rest assured that they are not violating their beliefs.

For example, in the U.S. we have laws regarding religious freedom. As an American you have agreed to honor the Constitution - American Islamics therefore have an individual agreement to allow religious freedom that they cannot break.


41 posted on 06/25/2006 5:13:42 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: anglian

So is it the 9:3 you posted in this one or the 9:3 you posted in your earlier post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1655361/posts?page=32#32 ?


42 posted on 06/25/2006 5:16:22 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

The Koran tells how Mohammed made a peace treaty with the Jews of a certain city in the Arabian peninsula. But within two years, he found a pretext to suddenly break the treaty, attack his surprised victims, and then behead all the Jewish men in the public square. Mohammed's tactic is held up by the Muslim Arabs as a hallowed model. It is enshrined in Muslim legal practice which has it that Muslims are not obligated for long to honor peace treaties with non Muslims -- infidels.

The concept of JIHAD or Holy War has been understood by most of us but there is another concept in the Koran with which few of us are familiar. But it is essential to understand this concept when relating to Moslems. That is the law of HUDAIBIYA which dates back to Muhammad and states clearly that "Muslims are permitted to lie and break agreements with non-Muslims." This applies to business, personal life and politics. Would a peace treaty be worth much if the other party is Moslem?


http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/muhammad.html


43 posted on 06/25/2006 5:16:26 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Fred Nerks

Hi Fred -

Check your sources - The Koran says God will forgive a Muslim who lies when their life is threatened.

You spin a good line, but don't give sources ... how about a link to where the Koran tells this tale ?

If it exists I'm sure you could find it on your PROFITofDoom site ...


44 posted on 06/25/2006 5:22:06 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS
So is it the 9:3 you posted in this one or the 9:3 you posted in your earlier post?

the same 009.003 in full PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve

45 posted on 06/25/2006 5:22:23 PM PDT by anglian
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To: anglian

... and what is the first word of 9:4 ?


46 posted on 06/25/2006 5:25:02 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

The Koran says God will forgive a Muslim who lies when their life is threatened.

-----

maybe it says Allah will, but GOD never said any such thing...

and allah was nothing but mohammad's sock puppet.


47 posted on 06/25/2006 5:33:42 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Fred Nerks

"maybe it says Allah will, but GOD never said any such thing... "

moot point ... one concept against another, but the word translates...

BTW- isn't there a Saint who denied Christ 3 times ? ... guess he got cleared - is it only the average peon who gets nailed for this ?


48 posted on 06/25/2006 5:37:37 PM PDT by RS ("I took the drugs because I liked them and I found excuses to take them, so I'm not weaseling.")
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To: RS

Were Muhammad's Wars in Self Defense?
By Ali Sina

Dear Ali

I was debating with one of my religious relatives and when I showed her this verse (9:5) she accused us (you and I) of misinterpretation. According to her we are reading this verse in the wrong context. Her interpretation of this verse is that Muslims are asked to fight back in self defense only and we should read verses 9:04 - 9:06 in order to get the correct meaning. She looks at it from Yusuf Ali's tafsir which states fight only if the pagans make war against you.

Regards

Gus




Dear Gus,

Sura 9 consists of two main discourses:

The first discourse (vv. 1-37), is called Bara’at. This discourse basically is the edict of intolerance that Muhammad issued one year after his victory in Mecca and only a few months before his death. The other main discourse of this Sura is called Taubah or repentance and has to do with the conditions that he imposed for accepting the repentance of those who did not go to war with him to Tabuk. Your question is about the first discourse which is actually, chronologically speaking, the last verses of the Quran.

Quran must be read in its context i.e. the context in which it was written (Sha’ne Nozool). You have to know the history behind every verse and Surah to understand what it says.

Bara’at means deliverance. In the year seven of Hijra Muhammad had signed a peace treaty with the Meccans, a few miles away from that town, in a place called Hudaibiyah. The treaty stated that for 10 years Muslims would leave the Quraish and their caravans unscathed and would not harass them by waylaying their caravans and plundering their properties. In exchange the Quraish would allow the Muslims to perform Hajj starting from the subsequent year.

After signing that accord, Muhammad concentrated on the North and raided the Northern populations of Arabia , starting with Khaibar, which was a prosperous Jewish town and then subdued many other smaller populations, casting terror in the hearts of the majority of the Arabs.

Only two years after the treaty of Hudaibiyah he felt strong enough to attack Mecca and was able to gather 10,000 men to accompany him in the expedition. (At Hudaibiyah he had only 1500 men). Not all those who accompanied him were Muslims. But he was an emerging tyrant and some of the tribes feared that refusing his demand would anger him and they too could become his subsequent victims. In other words they tried to stay out of his harm by appeasing him. Among them were the two big tribes of Sulaim and Tamim. To sweeten the deal Muhammad offered them a share of the booty. Carrot and stick are the preferred tools of narcissists.

But Muhammad had signed a treaty with the Meccans. How could he get around it? Not that the treaty itself was any deterrent, what Muhammad needed was an excuse to justify his treachery. The solution to all Muhammad’s problems was Allah and in this case also it was Allah who gave him deliverance.

Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Quran into English writes:

"Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon "the fighting" against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory " [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.]

Ali read the Bara'at to the crowd of the pilgrims in Mecca one year after the conquest of that city. That year was the last year that the Pagans were allowed to come close to Mecca and its mosque. In this edict Muhammad announced, "the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque" (9.28)

In this discourse Muhammad declared that all the treaties that he had previously signed with the Pagans are null and that the Pagans had four months of grace to submit to him and after that they would be hunted and as the verse 2 says; “covered with shame”.

The verse 3 clearly states that after the lapse of those four months, Muhammad would unilaterally dissolve his treaties and obligations with the Pagans "and will inflict grievous penalty on those who reject his Faith."

The pretext to declare null his treaty with the Meccans was soon found.

In the vicinity of Mecca there were two tribes with a long standing feud between them. One was Bani Bakr who had Meccans for allies and the other was Bani Khoza’a. They sought the protection of Muhammad when he was stationed in Hudaibiyah. It happened that several men of the Bani Bakr, in their traditional custom of hostility, effected a petty raid on their enemies, the Bani Khoza’a, and killed a few of them. The victims took their complaints to Muhammad to punish the aggressors. Entreaty was hardly necessary. The opportunity that Muhammad had been waiting for had finally arrived. He immediately gave his word to avenge their blood: "If I assist you not with the same aid as if the cause were mine own, then let Allah never assist me again!" But it was the invasion of Mecca that Muhammad was really coveting.

Instead of Bani Bakr, Muhammad started making preparation to attack Mecca . This was a continuing war between two unrelated tribes. The treaty of Hudaibiyah was signed between Muhammad and the Quraish. In no logical terms one can find an excuse for Muhammad to annul the treaty and attack Mecca . To justify this war he accused the Meccans of furnishing weapons to Bani Bakr. The history is written by the Muslims and we have no way to verify their claims against their enemies, but even if this accusation was true, still the Meccans cannot be blamed for selling arms to their allies. One can find no justification for Muhammad for invading Mecca .

The verse 4 of this Sura refers to this episode where Muhammad spells out his pretext. In this verse Muhammad shifts the blame on his victims and makes his Allah say that the treaties are “not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you.”

In other words the reason this treaty is dissolved, according to Muhammad was because the Meccans aided one against him. Of course this is a lie. The Meccans did not help Bani Bakr against Muhammad. This verse is basically an excuse, a face saver. Here Muhammad implies that the reason for the attack is because the Meccans aided the Bani Bakr. To see the absurdity of this excuse imagine that America and Russia sign a peace treaty but Russia supplies India some arms which the Indians use against Pakistan . Would America be justified to declare war on Russia accusing the Russians of the breach of their peace accord because America and Pakistan are allies? This makes no sense at all and it is clear that Muhammad was looking for an excuse to renege his treaty...

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina41019.htm


49 posted on 06/25/2006 5:49:29 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: RS

But it all boils down to one simple fact - THEY want to kill us all - but those that they don't kill, they plan to subjugate, opress, and enslave.


50 posted on 06/25/2006 5:52:43 PM PDT by TheBattman (Islam (and liberalism)- the cult of a Cancer on Society)
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