Posted on 06/25/2006 11:04:06 AM PDT by wagglebee
Dhimmitude(with taxes and no guns) sounds like the democrat 'plan'...lol
Curious -
He writes about a quote that he admits is open to various interpretations, but starts his quote with " Then, ".
It would seem that the only way to begin to understand what this line is sayig is to have some reference about what the " Then, " refers to.
Best presentation I've seen...spot on.
Interesting how they've put the Koran into chapter and verse, just like the Bible ... IOW - making it out to be like the Bible, but isn't the true word of God ......
You may be interested in a response I posted earlier this morning here.
The thread is Home front fears in war on terror ~
Read the rest of it ..the author clearly states the significance of these abominable words.
Enemy of islm bump
The only problem is that you CANNOT understand these words without taking into account the " Then, "
For example -
Then, as the clock struck midnight, he threw the switch and electricity coursed through her body.
What does this mean ?
It is some diabolical killer ?
... a legal execution of a diabolical killer ?
.... or perhaps some strange way of describing a late-night emergency room defibrillation procedure ?
Back to the topic at hand -
How can he possibly deem others interpretation of the verse as not being extreme WITHOUT himself having a full understanding of what it says ?
How do you slay folks, and THEN take them captive????
"How do you slay folks, and THEN take them captive????"
Good point - Now we have to take into account if the English translator truely understood what it was saying ...
Is that the "prophet" Mohammed's true form???
Yup, so if you think those Danish cartoons cause a flap . . .
Translations: AA - Ahmed Ali
NQ - The Noble Qur'an
PK - Pickthal
SH - Shakir
YU - Yusuf Ali
AA - But when these months, prohibited (for fighting), are over, slay the idolaters wheresoever you find them, and take them captive or besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every likely place. But if they repent and fulfil their devotional obligations and pay the zakat, then let them go their way, for God is forgiving and kind.
NQ - Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As- Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[]
PK - Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SH - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
YU - But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Muslims are ordered to fight all non-Muslims until they cease being non-Muslims via either conversion at swordpoint or payment of an oppressive tax.
Muhammad himself thought it was meaningless as he led his most important raids during the "forbidden" months. - Craig Winn(prophetofdoom.net)
But how do you reconsile TheBattman's very interesting point - How do you slay someone AND capture them ?
ALL of your translations use the same basic wording, yet what sense does it make ?
Obviously you can choose to ignore it, but then how can you honestly say that you understand what it it telling you ?
Your " PROFITofDoom " neglects to source a lot of his statements... does he give a source for this one ?
This may help you:
Quran 9:4
You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith.
PRECEDES
Quran, 9:5
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the jizya (poor-due), then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
"...slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them..."
No "THEN"
By adding "then" you change the meaning. Have any idea why you added "then"?
Thanks -
this is a PERFECT example of the errors on the PROFITofDoom site ... it's NOT Quran 9:4
( you can check it for yourself elsewhere on YOUR Profit's site here - http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009 )
"The prophet of doom site you reference is excellent! On this page are the varying translations of the verse in question:"
Yep - If you dig in a pile, you might find gold - the resouces this PROFITofDoom lists are easy to get to.
Where did you get your wrong citation of 9:4 ? ( many sites have copied this PROFIT's words as if they were handed from God on tablets )
... and did you find any difference now that you've read the correct one ?
Not wrong...just a different translation of the same bunk.
Nope wrong ... NO translation of the Koran that I have found shows this - are you suggesting that ALL these translations are so far off the beam on 9:4 ?
The PROFITofDoom appears to have created this by severely editing the translations of 9:2, but no matter, it's wrong calling it 9:4 and in doing so, conviently ignores the true impact of 9:4 on 9:5.
PROFETOFFDOOM.net - Quran 9:2 You cannot weaken Allah or escape. Allah will disgrace the unbelievers and put those who reject Him to shame.
USC version: 009.002,
YUSUFALI: Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
SHAKIR: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
Yep - you posted what I found - so ?
Would you care to get back to the original discussion of 9:4 being needed if you wish to understand 9:5 ?
... now that we can find the CORRECT 9:4
Guess you didn't look very hard.
009.003
YUSUFALI: If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
SHAKIR: it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
Even better ... good job !
So do we agree now that the 9:4 "quote" is an error ?
If so, we can dispense with the wrong quote issue and get back on track -
Does the REAL 9:4 modify 9:5 ?
Did the poster show it was?
9:4.
AA Except those idolaters with whom you have a treaty, who have not failed you in the least, nor helped anyone against you. Fulfil your obligations to them during the term (of the treaty). God loves those who take heed for themselves.
NQ Except those of the Mushrikûn with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allâh loves Al- Mattaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).
PK Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SH Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
YU (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. Source - http://www.prophetofdoom.net/surah.aspx?g=4702&i=472009 Quran 009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
? see post 21 and
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.aspx?g=405&i=4514
But in any case -
9:4 specifically shows that a treaty CAN be made with the idolaters, and God commands Islamics to honor the terms of the treaty.
This modifies 9:5 in a profound way - 9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.
This modifies 9:5 in a profound way - 9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.
Treaties, hmm? I wonder what the terms of such a treaty would be. I also wonder whether there are actually any non-Muslims who currently enjoy the forebearance commanded by 9:4.
Can you list any examples of non-Islamic peoples with whom Islam is *not* at war? Let me be clear... I'm not talking about the people who are currently (and fortunately) being ignored by the militant Muslims, but rather those with whom some sort of peace agreement has been formalized. Does any such relationship exist, anywhere on the planet?
9:5 is against people that you are not at peace with.
----
LOL! Was mohammad EVER at peace with ANYONE?
LOL
Quran 009.003 Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle. In other words, Allah and Muhammad can't be trusted.
YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances
PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
SHAKIR: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
The Koran tells how Mohammed made a peace treaty with the Jews of a certain city in the Arabian peninsula. But within two years, he found a pretext to suddenly break the treaty, attack his surprised victims, and then behead all the Jewish men in the public square. Mohammed's tactic is held up by the Muslim Arabs as a hallowed model. It is enshrined in Muslim legal practice which has it that Muslims are not obligated for long to honor peace treaties with non Muslims -- infidels.
The concept of JIHAD or Holy War has been understood by most of us but there is another concept in the Koran with which few of us are familiar. But it is essential to understand this concept when relating to Moslems. That is the law of HUDAIBIYA which dates back to Muhammad and states clearly that "Muslims are permitted to lie and break agreements with non-Muslims." This applies to business, personal life and politics. Would a peace treaty be worth much if the other party is Moslem?
http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/muhammad.html
" I also wonder whether there are actually any non-Muslims who currently enjoy the forebearance commanded by 9:4. "
Foturnately, what you wonder dosen't matter -
The premise here was that Islam commands Muslims to kill all non-muslims due to this verse ... it dosen't.
The billion or so Muslims who are NOT planning ways to kill you tonight can rest assured that they are not violating their beliefs.
For example, in the U.S. we have laws regarding religious freedom. As an American you have agreed to honor the Constitution - American Islamics therefore have an individual agreement to allow religious freedom that they cannot break.
So is it the 9:3 you posted in this one or the 9:3 you posted in your earlier post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1655361/posts?page=32#32 ?
The Koran tells how Mohammed made a peace treaty with the Jews of a certain city in the Arabian peninsula. But within two years, he found a pretext to suddenly break the treaty, attack his surprised victims, and then behead all the Jewish men in the public square. Mohammed's tactic is held up by the Muslim Arabs as a hallowed model. It is enshrined in Muslim legal practice which has it that Muslims are not obligated for long to honor peace treaties with non Muslims -- infidels.
The concept of JIHAD or Holy War has been understood by most of us but there is another concept in the Koran with which few of us are familiar. But it is essential to understand this concept when relating to Moslems. That is the law of HUDAIBIYA which dates back to Muhammad and states clearly that "Muslims are permitted to lie and break agreements with non-Muslims." This applies to business, personal life and politics. Would a peace treaty be worth much if the other party is Moslem?
http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/muhammad.html
Hi Fred -
Check your sources - The Koran says God will forgive a Muslim who lies when their life is threatened.
You spin a good line, but don't give sources ... how about a link to where the Koran tells this tale ?
If it exists I'm sure you could find it on your PROFITofDoom site ...
the same 009.003 in full PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve
... and what is the first word of 9:4 ?
The Koran says God will forgive a Muslim who lies when their life is threatened.
-----
maybe it says Allah will, but GOD never said any such thing...
and allah was nothing but mohammad's sock puppet.
"maybe it says Allah will, but GOD never said any such thing... "
moot point ... one concept against another, but the word translates...
BTW- isn't there a Saint who denied Christ 3 times ? ... guess he got cleared - is it only the average peon who gets nailed for this ?
Were Muhammad's Wars in Self Defense?
By Ali Sina
Dear Ali
I was debating with one of my religious relatives and when I showed her this verse (9:5) she accused us (you and I) of misinterpretation. According to her we are reading this verse in the wrong context. Her interpretation of this verse is that Muslims are asked to fight back in self defense only and we should read verses 9:04 - 9:06 in order to get the correct meaning. She looks at it from Yusuf Ali's tafsir which states fight only if the pagans make war against you.
Regards
Gus
Dear Gus,
Sura 9 consists of two main discourses:
The first discourse (vv. 1-37), is called Baraat. This discourse basically is the edict of intolerance that Muhammad issued one year after his victory in Mecca and only a few months before his death. The other main discourse of this Sura is called Taubah or repentance and has to do with the conditions that he imposed for accepting the repentance of those who did not go to war with him to Tabuk. Your question is about the first discourse which is actually, chronologically speaking, the last verses of the Quran.
Quran must be read in its context i.e. the context in which it was written (Shane Nozool). You have to know the history behind every verse and Surah to understand what it says.
Baraat means deliverance. In the year seven of Hijra Muhammad had signed a peace treaty with the Meccans, a few miles away from that town, in a place called Hudaibiyah. The treaty stated that for 10 years Muslims would leave the Quraish and their caravans unscathed and would not harass them by waylaying their caravans and plundering their properties. In exchange the Quraish would allow the Muslims to perform Hajj starting from the subsequent year.
After signing that accord, Muhammad concentrated on the North and raided the Northern populations of Arabia , starting with Khaibar, which was a prosperous Jewish town and then subdued many other smaller populations, casting terror in the hearts of the majority of the Arabs.
Only two years after the treaty of Hudaibiyah he felt strong enough to attack Mecca and was able to gather 10,000 men to accompany him in the expedition. (At Hudaibiyah he had only 1500 men). Not all those who accompanied him were Muslims. But he was an emerging tyrant and some of the tribes feared that refusing his demand would anger him and they too could become his subsequent victims. In other words they tried to stay out of his harm by appeasing him. Among them were the two big tribes of Sulaim and Tamim. To sweeten the deal Muhammad offered them a share of the booty. Carrot and stick are the preferred tools of narcissists.
But Muhammad had signed a treaty with the Meccans. How could he get around it? Not that the treaty itself was any deterrent, what Muhammad needed was an excuse to justify his treachery. The solution to all Muhammads problems was Allah and in this case also it was Allah who gave him deliverance.
Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Quran into English writes:
"Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon "the fighting" against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory " [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.]
Ali read the Bara'at to the crowd of the pilgrims in Mecca one year after the conquest of that city. That year was the last year that the Pagans were allowed to come close to Mecca and its mosque. In this edict Muhammad announced, "the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque" (9.28)
In this discourse Muhammad declared that all the treaties that he had previously signed with the Pagans are null and that the Pagans had four months of grace to submit to him and after that they would be hunted and as the verse 2 says; covered with shame.
The verse 3 clearly states that after the lapse of those four months, Muhammad would unilaterally dissolve his treaties and obligations with the Pagans "and will inflict grievous penalty on those who reject his Faith."
The pretext to declare null his treaty with the Meccans was soon found.
In the vicinity of Mecca there were two tribes with a long standing feud between them. One was Bani Bakr who had Meccans for allies and the other was Bani Khozaa. They sought the protection of Muhammad when he was stationed in Hudaibiyah. It happened that several men of the Bani Bakr, in their traditional custom of hostility, effected a petty raid on their enemies, the Bani Khozaa, and killed a few of them. The victims took their complaints to Muhammad to punish the aggressors. Entreaty was hardly necessary. The opportunity that Muhammad had been waiting for had finally arrived. He immediately gave his word to avenge their blood: "If I assist you not with the same aid as if the cause were mine own, then let Allah never assist me again!" But it was the invasion of Mecca that Muhammad was really coveting.
Instead of Bani Bakr, Muhammad started making preparation to attack Mecca . This was a continuing war between two unrelated tribes. The treaty of Hudaibiyah was signed between Muhammad and the Quraish. In no logical terms one can find an excuse for Muhammad to annul the treaty and attack Mecca . To justify this war he accused the Meccans of furnishing weapons to Bani Bakr. The history is written by the Muslims and we have no way to verify their claims against their enemies, but even if this accusation was true, still the Meccans cannot be blamed for selling arms to their allies. One can find no justification for Muhammad for invading Mecca .
The verse 4 of this Sura refers to this episode where Muhammad spells out his pretext. In this verse Muhammad shifts the blame on his victims and makes his Allah say that the treaties are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you.
In other words the reason this treaty is dissolved, according to Muhammad was because the Meccans aided one against him. Of course this is a lie. The Meccans did not help Bani Bakr against Muhammad. This verse is basically an excuse, a face saver. Here Muhammad implies that the reason for the attack is because the Meccans aided the Bani Bakr. To see the absurdity of this excuse imagine that America and Russia sign a peace treaty but Russia supplies India some arms which the Indians use against Pakistan . Would America be justified to declare war on Russia accusing the Russians of the breach of their peace accord because America and Pakistan are allies? This makes no sense at all and it is clear that Muhammad was looking for an excuse to renege his treaty...
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina41019.htm
But it all boils down to one simple fact - THEY want to kill us all - but those that they don't kill, they plan to subjugate, opress, and enslave.
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