A Penniless America - Common Cents?

WFRV.COM ^ | 02 JULY 2006 | AP

[ovrtaxt]

That's quite a graph. What we pay for copper wire right now is insane. And I just bought about 50' of copper gutter for my house. I got it at a good price, since the guy had it in storage for over 3 years. He ordered too much for a previous project, and he owed a favor.

[Tijeras_Slim]

Those Darn ASIANS are buying all the pennies at #19.

[Petronski]

Pennies are the only presently circulating "bullion" coin.

Only if you mean copper-plated zinc bullion.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why do we put up with this system, which is owned by a private corporation

So who owns it? Do they make a lot of money off of it? How much?

[martin_fierro]

[OpusatFR]

"Pennies are the only presently circulating "bullion" coin."

Zinc...

Good market.

Sorry I didn't Rhodium. Talk about a huge price for a little metal.

[theBuckwheat]

>>
Pennies are the only presently circulating "bullion" coin.
<<

Now that is a great observation!

[RipSawyer]

Judging by the price of a gallon of gas, a dime now has less value that a penny did in 1960.

According to the website Economic History Resources, a penny in 1960 was worth as much as 7 cents today, I consider that understated. I think the truth is at least a ten to one ratio, in fact I am almost certain it is worse.

I can carry one hundred dollars worth of groceries in to the house in one trip without much trouble and I am not nearly as strong as I used to be. In 1960 you would have needed a pickup truck and probably raised sideplanks on it to haul one hundred dollars worth of groceries.

[RipSawyer]

I have some copper tubing that I bought thirty years ago and neve used, I wonder what it is worth now.

[BenLurkin]

Huh.

Well I won't make that mistake again.

[theBuckwheat]

>>
So who owns it? Do they make a lot of money off of it? How much?
<<

The answer to your question can be found in microseconds on Google. Search "private corporation federal reserve" yields 27.5 million hits. Technically, it is a federally charted corporation, and the President appoints the chairman, but the shareholders are all the national banks in proportion to their capital. The US government does not own a single share of stock.

If anyone tries to make you believe the Fed is controlled by the US government, just pay attention to how the Congress and the MSM fawn over the opinion and statements of the Board of Governors or the color of the Chairman's tie, or if he is a "inflation hawk" or whatever. The Boy Scouts are a federally charted corporation and nobody pretends the government controls them! Neither does anyone except the shareholders control the Federal Reserve, and the shareholders are the National Banks.

How much does the Fed earn? Hey! it prints money, legally. So what kind of question is that? The Fed earns as much as it wants to. If it does not earn enough, it can just create money out of thin air until it has enough. When the Fed hikes the "prime rate", it earns interest on the money, which it takes to pay its bills and fly its executives around in their jets. Needless to say, the Fed finds it easy to have needs to spend money on. It proudly states that it returns any excess to the US Treasury.

So, when you hear on the news that the Fed raised interest rates, think of it as another form of taxation.

The curious question natural flows: what if the US Government wanted to buy the Fed back? Say it wanted to force the National Banks to disgorge their shares. Recall that in 1934 Roosevelt ordered all citizens to exchange all their personal gold for federal reserve notes! Many have said this amounted to a bankruptcy liquidation of the US economy to the favor of the shareholders in the corporation that issued those notes. If so, how would you arrive at a fair price? What is the printing press that legally can be used to print an infinite number of dollars worth????

Yet, for any national bank that is listed on a public stock exchange, Sarbanes-Oxley requires them to mark to market any assets they hold. How can the national banks comply with this requirement? They cannot. In truth, there will be endless obstacles and delays placed in the way of any politician who wants the Federal government to acquire full control of the Federal Reserve corporation. It won't happen- we fought a civil war in the 1860s over such matters and the forces who favored being able to freely print money won.

[ThinkDifferent]

The Mint's announcement is a milestone, though, because coins have historically cost less to produce than the face value paid by receiving banks. They are moneymakers for the government.

They're only moneymakers for those ignorant of opportunity costs. Even if a penny only costs 0.5 cents to make, and a nickel costs 2 cents, it would still be better to dump the penny and increase nickel production to compensate.

[butternut_squash_bisque]

I can just imagine what you find on the beaches...

[Toddsterpatriot]

So who owns it?

Neither does anyone except the shareholders control the Federal Reserve, and the shareholders are the National Banks.

Do they make a lot of money off of it?

How much does the Fed earn? Hey! it prints money, legally. So what kind of question is that?

The kind of question that you didn't understand. I don't care how much the Fed makes, I want to know how much the shareholders make.

When the Fed hikes the "prime rate", it earns interest on the money,

I hate to break it to you, but the Fed has nothing to do with the prime rate.

It proudly states that it returns any excess to the US Treasury.

So the shareholders don't get to keep all the money the Fed earns? What kind of secret evil conspiracy returns money to the Treasury?

If so, how would you arrive at a fair price? What is the printing press that legally can be used to print an infinite number of dollars worth????

Wow! I guess each share of the Fed must have an infinite value? Who owns these shares? Their shares must also have an infinite value.

Yet, for any national bank that is listed on a public stock exchange, Sarbanes-Oxley requires them to mark to market any assets they hold. How can the national banks comply with this requirement? They cannot.

Have you ever seen that line item on their balance sheet? If not, how do you know that they haven't marked it to market?

In truth, there will be endless obstacles and delays placed in the way of any politician who wants the Federal government to acquire full control of the Federal Reserve corporation.

Yeah, I'd feel much better if Nancy Pelosi and Cynthia McKinney were in charge of the Federal Reserve. You're funny!

[theBuckwheat]

Hmmmm. How to answer....

>>
Wow! I guess each share of the Fed must have an infinite value? Who owns these shares? Their shares must also have an infinite value.
<<

In a way, yes they do. For one thing, there is a big difference between notational value and what the shares would fetch on the open market, say eBay.

What would you be willing to pay for one share of a company that had the license to print fully legal money. There is only one value.

This question is reinforced by the fact that in 1934 Roosevelt forced, upon penalty of a felony, prison and a hefty fine, all citizens to exchange their gold (in any form except jewelry) for fiat Federal Reserve Notes for a rate that forced an instant, overnight, devaluation of the dollar. That seizure could be repeated at any time. Nothing prevents forced liquidation of our assets through the income or death tax system, or worse a new tax such as a wealth tax, where you must pay a percent of your assets each year no matter how much income you had.

And with deliberate inflation, the Fed doesn't have to lift a finger as rising incomes float all taxpayers upwards in the tax brackets forcing them to convert more and more of their assets into payments to the treasury.

With Nixon's closing of the gold window, whereby he cut off the value of the dollar from any legal relationship with gold or silver, there is no longer any legal definition of the value of the US Dollar.

So, nothing stops the Fed from deciding to change the value of the dollar. Indeed, it has a "targeted" or deliberate, rate of inflation of 2%. If it decide that the target should be 15%, which it once was, in the 1970s, there is nothing that the government can do, except to try to pass a law, which might have no effect anyway.

A share in the Federal Reserve is a share in a corporation that is the primary cause of slavery- tax slavery. Why such as harsh conclusion? Slavery is where you cannot escape your master. As a "US Person", you must pay taxes on your income, no matter where you live, no matter where that income was earned, no matter what source it was derived from. If you flee the country, you must get IRS permission to expatriate, and they have entered into tax treaties with many nations to force you to continue to file and pay taxes for 10 years afterwords.

So again, what is the value of one share of a corporation that can enslave a whole nation? And already has?

[Toddsterpatriot]

What would you be willing to pay for one share of a company that had the license to print fully legal money. There is only one value.

Having a share in such a company benefits you only if you get some of those ill-gotten earnings. You never did tell me how much the shareholders get. If the Fed "earns" $30 billion, spends $2 billion and returns $28 billion to the treasury, where is the infinite profit that you claim the shareholders are entitled to?

Nothing prevents forced liquidation of our assets through the income or death tax system, or worse a new tax such as a wealth tax, where you must pay a percent of your assets each year no matter how much income you had.

Scary prospects. Totally unrelated to the Fed.

And with deliberate inflation, the Fed doesn't have to lift a finger as rising incomes float all taxpayers upwards in the tax brackets

Tax brackets are inflation adjusted.

So again, what is the value of one share of a corporation that can enslave a whole nation? And already has?

LOL! You tell me.

A share in the Federal Reserve is a share in a corporation that is the primary cause of slavery- tax slavery.

Your tinfoil is on too tight. It's cutting off the circulation to your brain.

[theBuckwheat]

>>
Your tinfoil is on too tight. It's cutting off the circulation to your brain.
<<

Just try and escape the tax slavery we are in. Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

[antivenom]

How do you get a quarter into the neck of a Bud bottle?

[Toddsterpatriot]

Just try and escape the tax slavery we are in.

That's an issue that has nothing to do with the Federal Reserve.

Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

Again? I already refuted your "infinite value" assertion. Your higher inflation = higher tax brackets assertion. Your mark-to-market assertion. Your "Fed sets the prime rate" assertion. Your "the Fed earns money on their hiked prime rate" assertion.

I'm getting tired of proving you wrong. How about, for a change, you prove one of your assertions is correct? Loosen the tinfoil, let the blood flow return to your brain and give it a try. After so many years of wrong thinking, it may be difficult for you, but give it a try. Before it's too late.

[freedumb2003]

But...but...prices will rise to the nearest nickel and it'll hurt the poor the most!

TAXES will rise by 5% increments instead of 1% increments. THAT is bad.