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N.C. Law Banning Cohabitation Struck Down
AP ^ | 7/20/6 | STEVE HARTSOE

Posted on 07/20/2006 10:13:56 AM PDT by SmithL

Raleigh, N.C. -- A state judge has ruled that North Carolina's 201-year-old law barring unmarried couples from living together is unconstitutional.

The American Civil Liberties Union sued last year to overturn the rarely enforced law on behalf of a former sheriff's dispatcher who says she had to quit her job because she wouldn't marry her live-in boyfriend.

Deborah Hobbs, 40, says her boss, Sheriff Carson Smith of Pender County, near Wilmington, told her to get married, move out or find another job after he found out she and her boyfriend had been living together for three years. The couple did not want to get married, so Hobbs quit in 2004.

State Superior Court Judge Benjamin Alford issued the ruling late Wednesday, saying the law violated Hobbs' constitutional right to liberty. He cited the 2003 U.S. Supreme Court case titled Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down a Texas sodomy law.

"The Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas stands for the proposition that the government has no business regulating relationships between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own home," Jennifer Rudinger, executive director of the ACLU of North Carolina, said in a statement.

(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: aclu; culturewars; govwatch; homosexualagenda; judiciary; lawrencevtexas; marriage; playinghouse; ruling; shackingup
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To: MineralMan; madprof98
"""So, show me the harm of that one, single factor."""

There is no harm in it. None. The fact that my girlfriend and I live together has absolutely no significance whatsoever on madprof98's everyday life. We share the bills. And we will eventually get married if we see that we can live together. I won't make the same mistake twice.

But it is nobody else's dang business. If people like madprof98 don't like my living arrangement, then people like madprof98 don't have to come to my house, They can just turn their nose up into the air and ride on by.
41 posted on 07/20/2006 11:48:51 AM PDT by HOTTIEBOY (I'm your huckleberry)
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To: ZULU
The radical libertarians have come crawling out of their holes to attack you on this one.

Actually, I think they are better termed "conservatives". Those are the ones who foolishly think the rights of individuals are paramount and should not be trampled on by the state. Leftists generally view the state as supreme and it is the state that grants rights to its citizens. I'll go with the former.

The fact that this law was on the books for 200 years AS WELL AS SIMILAR laws all over the nation, indicates that the Founding Fathers who WROTE our Constitution had no problem with them.

200 years ago, we had slavery and Women had few if any rights. Religious tests though unconstitutional were the law in many states. The founding fathers gave us a Constitution that allowed for continued improvement of our Nation and society.

But our radical liberal courts, with some help from the anti-western ACLU, suddenly "discvovered" a new right - the right to live like swine.

The 6 million couples living together outside of marriage hardly compare with the 2 1/2 to 3 million divorces annually, which directly and negatively impact over a million children annually. So the definition of swine may have to be greatly expanded.

Idiotic decisions by Federal Courts like this one are indeed contributing to the collapse of western civilization.

Perhaps they understand that true liberty means free choices, which at times will be the wrong choices. But that is the basis of freedom...the freedom to make a bad choice.

42 posted on 07/20/2006 11:49:52 AM PDT by MACVSOG68
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To: HOTTIEBOY
I suppose if two cohabitators from the ghetto were to get married, they would suddenly be tranformed to a uppity Hamptons resident like yourself.

It's not the lack of marriage that is the problem, it's the lack of dedication and commitment to one's partner and offspring that creates the problem for society. A piece of paper from the church and government doesn't mean a thing without the commitment.

43 posted on 07/20/2006 11:50:13 AM PDT by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
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To: najida

Hey sweety!


44 posted on 07/20/2006 11:53:38 AM PDT by FearlessFreep (Excuse me. But are those your legs or are you riding a chicken?)
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To: Hacksaw
Judges updating constitutions as they see fit is not "getting it right". "Everybody does it" is not an excuse for judicial legislation.

It's also called recognizing rights of individuals, something that many here want no part of.

45 posted on 07/20/2006 11:54:37 AM PDT by MACVSOG68
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To: Hacksaw

One of the reasons socialists push sexual libertinism, homosexuality, etc., is that they tend to lead to bigger government in the long run. That's why Europe has seen such an expansion of government power as it's become more sexually "tolerant". Note that sexually "tolerant" Sweden has astronomical tax levels, a massive bureaucracy, government that intrudes into people's lives at a level unheard of here.

People tend to forget about freedom of speech, freedom of the press, property rights, gun rights, and so on when liberty becomes defined around sex. To express it symbolically, while people are out having an orgy to celebrate their sexual liberation, government takes over everything else.


46 posted on 07/20/2006 12:07:26 PM PDT by puroresu
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To: ZULU
The fact that this law was on the books for 200 years AS WELL AS SIMILAR laws all over the nation, indicates that the Founding Fathers who WROTE our Constitution had no problem with them.

Theres also a law on the books that makes it illegal to beat your wife with any object wider that you thumb. And you cannot beat your wife on the courthouse steps on Sunday.

But our radical liberal courts, with some help from the anti-western ACLU, suddenly "discvovered" a new right - the right to live like swine.

Where you see swine, I see a very expensive (I won't say how much) brand new house in a gated community with marble accents, all the tech playthings inside, a two car garage and a well manicured lawn.

Idiotic decisions by Federal Courts like this one are indeed contributing to the collapse of western civilization.

This decision was made because the judges ruled that whatever my living arrangements may be is nobody's business. They made these decisions so that they wouldn't have to round up hundreds of thousands of couples who are hard working, taxpaying, law abiding Americans and throw them in jail. If what i am doing is morally wrong, (Morals that have obviously been established by the almighty doer-of-no-wrong, you.) then it is between me and me God. Not me and my government or my neighbor or you.
47 posted on 07/20/2006 12:11:41 PM PDT by HOTTIEBOY (I'm your huckleberry)
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: HOTTIEBOY
Hottie don't waste your time arguing With the holier-than-thou squad. It'll only get you pissed and give you a headache.

Hubby and I lived together 6 years before we got married at bike week. (And we were in a nice quiet rural area.)

50 posted on 07/20/2006 12:31:17 PM PDT by Jersey Republican Biker Chick (Tagline removed per Admin. Moderator.)
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To: TonyRo76
Yep.

But one right he didn't give me, or you, is the right to stand in his stead and decide for others what he means, or what he wants.

51 posted on 07/20/2006 12:38:58 PM PDT by lugsoul (Livin' in fear is just another way of dying before your time. - Mike Cooley)
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To: MACVSOG68
Yes, ocassionally some of them get it right, as in this case. Rights always trump powers of the state.

You do not have a God-given right to shack up.
52 posted on 07/20/2006 1:31:52 PM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: MACVSOG68

'Actually, I think they are better termed "conservatives". Those are the ones who foolishly think the rights of individuals are paramount and should not be trampled on by the state. Leftists generally view the state as supreme and it is the state that grants rights to its citizens. I'll go with the former.'

People who believe that the rights of individuals are always paramount are not libertarians, they are anarchists.
In any civilized society, the state has a right to establish certain social norms and standards.

Libertarians oppose a military draft and oppose immigration laws. The Founding Fathers had no problem with military conscription, and I doubt if they would have approved of the incremental invasion of America by Mexico.

"200 years ago, we had slavery and Women had few if any rights. Religious tests though unconstitutional were the law in many states. The founding fathers gave us a Constitution that allowed for continued improvement of our Nation and society."

200 years ago slavery was legal and constitutional, although certainly inconsistent with the founding principles of America which is why it was ulimately eliminated. Women had no rights as it was a male dominated world. Progess advances incrementally - as does decay.
The Founding Fathers did give us a Constitution which contains within itself a mechanism for improvement, but that same mechanism can be abused in the wrong hands.

"The 6 million couples living together outside of marriage hardly compare with the 2 1/2 to 3 million divorces annually, which directly and negatively impact over a million children annually. So the definition of swine may have to be greatly expanded."

At least the 2.5 million people who divorced made an attempt at marriage. And of those 6 million people who live together and produce offspring, their partnerships are far more likely to frgament than those of people who are married. Individuals who are given to instant gratification lack the dedication and self-discipline which is necessary to make a successful marriage work. And they produce the offspring which create the societal problems we see all about us as these children have no role models, no direction, no sense of family honor, no self-discipline or self respect, and become a burden rather than an asset to society.

"Perhaps they understand that true liberty means free choices, which at times will be the wrong choices. But that is the basis of freedom...the freedom to make a bad choice."

True liberty does mean the freedom to make bad choices - as long as the consequences of those bad choices are born by the indidivuals who make the bad choices. When people choose to live together outside marriage the ultimate consequences are children and society ulitmately bears the burden of dealing with the problems these children generate.





53 posted on 07/20/2006 1:32:21 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: FearlessFreep

Hey sugar....!


54 posted on 07/20/2006 1:35:03 PM PDT by najida (The internet is for kids grown up-- Where else could you have 10,000 imaginary friends?)
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To: Antoninus
You do not have a God-given right to shack up.

Well, I guess I don't specifically have a God-given right to play chess either, but then in the God-given privacy of my home, neither you nor the state has a God given right to prevent me from doing so. Same for other activities between consenting adults.

55 posted on 07/20/2006 1:43:48 PM PDT by MACVSOG68
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To: HOTTIEBOY

"Theres also a law on the books that makes it illegal to beat your wife with any object wider that you thumb. And you cannot beat your wife on the courthouse steps on Sunday."

That analogy is absurd.

"Where you see swine, I see a very expensive (I won't say how much) brand new house in a gated community with marble accents, all the tech playthings inside, a two car garage and a well manicured lawn."

If you mean you are shacking up with somebody and not married to them, I hope I don't have to pay the costs of feeding, medicating, and caring for your kids when you ultimately split and they are left without support. And I hope I don't have to pay the costs of apprehending, trying and incarcerating them becasue they haven't learned to live like responsible people because they were raised in an environment without appropriate role models. And I hope I don;t have to worry about your offspring generating violent crimes in my neighborhood and threatening my right to keep and bear arms because they are in the business of stealing them or abusing them.

And I'm not impressed by a gated community with marble fixtures, "playthings" and a well-manicured lawn. Children need loving devoted parents of both sexes who are good moral role models, not successful entrepeneurs, in order to grow up straight. God doesn't judge things by superficialities and I try not to either.


"This decision was made because the judges ruled that whatever my living arrangements may be is nobody's business."

When the consequences of your "living arrangements" impact me or my family or nation adversely, it IS my business.



They made these decisions so that they wouldn't have to round up hundreds of thousands of couples who are hard working, taxpaying, law abiding Americans and throw them in jail. If what i am doing is morally wrong, (Morals that have obviously been established by the almighty doer-of-no-wrong, you.) then it is between me and me God. Not me and my government or my neighbor or you.

"They made these decisions so that they wouldn't have to round up hundreds of thousands of couples who are hard working, taxpaying, law abiding Americans and throw them in jail."

You aren't law-abiding if you are breaking a law and I'm not aware of any organized pogroms to round up fornicators or adulterers in America.

"(Morals that have obviously been established by the almighty doer-of-no-wrong,you.)"

Wrong. GENERATIONS of other people going back very many years established these moral codes and they have worked fairly well. Your free and easy lifestyle doesn't have such a successful track record.

"then it is between me and me God. Not me and my government or my neighbor or you."

If what you are doing doesn't impact me or my community or country, you are correct. When it does, it no longer is between you and God alone.


56 posted on 07/20/2006 1:49:08 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: HOTTIEBOY
I heard about this this morning and it interested me because I am from NC and I cohabitate. I guess am damned for hell.

I can't speak for God, but I sure feel sorry for any kids you bring into what is inherently an unstable family situation.

57 posted on 07/20/2006 1:50:40 PM PDT by madprof98
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To: FearlessFreep
I personally know many couples who live together. None of them are from a ghetto.

Family instability creates a ghetto--that is, a situation in which children end up raising themselves, and quite often, trying to raise their parents as well. People who put their own immediate and selfish desires above the welfare of children end up harming society, whatever their intentions when they decide that traditional values about marriage and family do not apply to them.

58 posted on 07/20/2006 1:55:23 PM PDT by madprof98
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To: MACVSOG68
Well, I guess I don't specifically have a God-given right to play chess either, but then in the God-given privacy of my home, neither you nor the state has a God given right to prevent me from doing so. Same for other activities between consenting adults.

Is that so? OK, here's a scenario for you: You live in a twin. Your neighbor is into bestiality with skunks. As a result, your house smells like skunk 24-7 and you rarely get a good night's sleep. Are you violating his "right to privacy" by convincing your local town council to outlaw the keeping of skunks on private property within city limits?

The "right to privacy" is abstract and difficult to define--which is why it wasn't included in the BoR. The notion that local govenment doesn't have the power to enforce local standards of decency as agreed upon by the majority of citizens is a liberal-tarian notion which had its coming-out party in the 1960s. I reject it completely. For those of you who accept it, I reckon your "enlightened" notions of privacy will be extinct the second the skunk-lover moves in next door.
59 posted on 07/20/2006 1:55:38 PM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: Antoninus
The "right to privacy" is abstract and difficult to define--which is why it wasn't included in the BoR. The notion that local govenment doesn't have the power to enforce local standards of decency as agreed upon by the majority of citizens is a liberal-tarian notion which had its coming-out party in the 1960s. I reject it completely. For those of you who accept it, I reckon your "enlightened" notions of privacy will be extinct the second the skunk-lover moves in next door.

The analogy is PERFECT! And the analysis that follows from it is exactly right. I would venture, though, that somewhat less than half of FReepers agree. Real conservatives (i.e., those who would preserve our social fabric) are a distinct minority, even here.

60 posted on 07/20/2006 2:01:25 PM PDT by madprof98
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