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Christians are Jews' best friends
Toronto Sun (Canada) ^ | Sat, August 12, 2006 | MICHAEL COREN

Posted on 08/12/2006 1:09:21 PM PDT by GMMAC

Christians are Jews' best friends

Toronto Sun
Sat, August 12, 2006

By MICHAEL COREN


One of the most difficult things about spending time in Israel is returning home, as I did two weeks ago. As dangerous as life might be in the Jewish state at the moment, daily existence is layered in significance. Then it's back to North America, where the trivial is made to seem profound.

I refer to Mel Gibson's drunken stupidity when he made various repugnant comments about Jewish people. As a Roman Catholic with three Jewish grandparents, and someone who worries every day about the Israel I love, this seems so very unimportant. Gibson was, of course, obnoxious and owes the Jewish community an apology.

Which is precisely what he gave within hours of his arrest. A gracious, genuine and heartfelt apology. Contrition, regret, a promise to learn from his mistakes and put matters right.

Good people, Jew and Gentile alike, accepted this and saw it as an opportunity to move forward. Others decided to exploit the situation and use Gibson's lapse to bash him and his religion. This, they claimed, proved that he is an anti-Semite and that his movie, The Passion of the Christ, was anti-Semitic as well.

Not so. The Passion was the story of the death of Yeshua, Son of Miriam. A Jewish man and a Jewish mother. It is anti-Semitic only to those who are anti-Semites themselves or see anti-Semitism everywhere and anywhere.

As for Gibson hating Jews, this is denied by all of those who know him best, including Jewish people. One stupid comment does not make the man anti-Semitic, any more than one comment in support of Jews necessarily makes a person pro-Jewish.

Something needs to be said clearly and loudly. Conservative, faithful Christians, Catholic and evangelical alike, are the best friends Jews and Israel have. Goodness, in some places they are the only friends Jews and Israel have.

If we want to see authentic hatred and bigotry, we only need to read the newspapers and watch television. There, one finds daily venom against Christianity from the mainstream and the most vitriolic contempt from the fringes. Even government gets involved, prosecuting believers for speaking their mind -- or simply having a mind that thinks differently about moral issues than the liberal and aggressively secular establishment.

It's part of the grand double standard that informs our lives. A double standard that was most noticeable in the amount of time and space devoted to Gibson's moments of foolishness versus the media's apparent self-censorship in the case of Naveed Afzal Haq.

Who's he?

Therein lies the point.

This American Muslim is charged in one of the worst racist attacks in recent history. Police allege that he walked into the Jewish Federation office in Seattle on July 28 and shot six women, one of them heavily pregnant. One of the victims died, three are still in critical condition.

The gunman reportedly announced that he was angry at Israel, before opening fire on the 18 Jewish charity workers who were present. Afzal Haq's lawyer has indicated he may have been on medication for bipolar disorder. Police have laid murder charges but are not pursuing the case as a hate crime.

Not only has the case received limited coverage in major newspapers, but even Jewish groups and publications have generally devoted far more time and space to Mel Gibson than to this anti-Semitic slaughter.

One can only wonder what would have happened if the suspect had been a Christian. Our priorities and our judgment today are so slurred and so politically correct that it makes one, well, passionate. Good luck Mel, good luck.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Israel; News/Current Events; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: antisemitism; bigotry; bloodlibel; catholic; christian; christians; crusades; czars; etc; exclusion; expulsions; ghettos; holocaust; huttongibson; inquisition; islamofascism; israel; jewish; jews; judeochristian; kkk; melgibson; muslim; naveedafzalhaq; nazis; paleos; passionplays; pograms; popes; proisrael; protocols; quotas; reformation; scapegoating; vatican; ww2
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1 posted on 08/12/2006 1:09:22 PM PDT by GMMAC
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To: fanfan; Pikamax; Former Proud Canadian; Great Dane; Alberta's Child; headsonpikes; Ryle; ...

PING!
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

2 posted on 08/12/2006 1:10:55 PM PDT by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: GMMAC

Well duh! It sure isn't the secular Pagans on the Political Left or their new best buddies Rabid Islam.


3 posted on 08/12/2006 1:11:59 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (History shows us that if you are not willing to fight, you better be prepared to die)
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To: GMMAC

Thank you for posting this article.


4 posted on 08/12/2006 1:20:39 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: GMMAC
Yup. During the past 2000 years, when Christians weren't persecuting Jews, we were their best friends - and with friends like us, who needed enemies...
But mostly we were beating the crap out of them..
Fortunately (for the Jews), there's a bit of a lull in the action at the moment, so enjoy it while it lasts.
5 posted on 08/12/2006 1:25:12 PM PDT by CaptainCanada (Citizenship which costs nothing is worth nothing..........................................)
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To: CaptainCanada

Your post smells like uhmm....crap! Yep, it's crap alright!


6 posted on 08/12/2006 1:28:01 PM PDT by crghill
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To: CaptainCanada
Aside from St. Stephen, there's definitely blood on both side's hands ... particularly in Eastern Europe.
7 posted on 08/12/2006 1:30:29 PM PDT by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: GMMAC

Firearms are Jews Best Friends


8 posted on 08/12/2006 1:33:15 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: CaptainCanada
" During the past 2000 years, when Christians weren't persecuting Jews, we were their best friends - and with friends like us, who needed enemies..."
__________________________

What are you referring to, be specific.

Your not going to make the claim the Nazis were Christians are you?
9 posted on 08/12/2006 1:33:46 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: wmfights

---Before the 19th Century
Massive violent attacks against Jews date back at least to the Crusades, as well as the York Castle massacre of 1190.
In 1348, because of the hysteria surrounding the Black Plague, Jews were massacred in Chillon, Basle, Stuttgart, Ulm, Speyer, Dresden, Strasbourg, and Mainz -- 12,000 in Mainz alone. A large number of the surviving Jews fled to Poland, which was very welcoming to Jews at the time.[1]
Jews were also massacred during the Khmelnytsky Uprising of Ukrainian Cossacks in 1648-1654.
[edit]
In the Russian Empire
The term pogrom as a reference to large-scale, targeted, and repeated anti-Jewish rioting only saw use beginning in the 19th century. The first pogrom of this sort is often considered to be the 1821 anti-Jewish riots in Odessa (modern Ukraine) after the death of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Constantinople, in which 14 Jews were killed.[2] Other sources, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia say the first pogrom was the 1859 riots in Odessa. The term became common after a large-scale wave of anti-Jewish riots swept southern Imperial Russia in 1881-1884, after Jews were wrongly blamed for the assassination of Tsar Alexander II.


The victims, mostly Jewish children, of a 1905 pogrom in Yekaterinoslav (today's Dnipropetrovsk).
In the 1880s outbreak, thousands of Jewish homes were destroyed, many families reduced to extremes of poverty; women were sexually assaulted, and large numbers of men, women, and children injured in 166 towns in the southwest provinces of the Empire (modern Ukraine). The new Tsar Alexander III blamed the Jews for the riots and issued a series of harsh restrictions on Jews. The series of pogroms continued for more than three years with at least tacit inactivity of the authorities.
An even bloodier wave of pogroms broke out in 1903-1906, leaving an estimated 2,000 Jews dead, and many more wounded. The New York Times described the First Kishinev pogrom of Easter, 1903:
"The anti-Jewish riots in Kishinev, Bessarabia (modern Moldova), are worse than the censor will permit to publish. There was a well laid-out plan for the general massacre of Jews on the day following the Orthodox Easter. The mob was led by priests, and the general cry, "Kill the Jews," was taken up all over the city. The Jews were taken wholly unaware and were slaughtered like sheep. The dead number 120 [Note: the actual number of dead was 47-48[3]] and the injured about 500. The scenes of horror attending this massacre are beyond description. Babes [sic] were literally torn to pieces by the frenzied and bloodthirsty mob. The local police made no attempt to check the reign of terror. At sunset the streets were piled with corpses and wounded. Those who could make their escape fled in terror, and the city is now practically deserted of Jews." [4]---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom#Before_the_19th_Century


10 posted on 08/12/2006 1:41:01 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: claudiustg

Should we dredge up the Pharisee's and Sadducee's and their actions against the believer's of The Way?


11 posted on 08/12/2006 1:49:21 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: GMMAC
I grew up attending independent Baptist churches. We moved around several times, so I encountered close to a dozen all told.Every church and every pastor at some time commented on God's chosen people and how the US was more or less obligated to defend Israel because of this.

Within the Baptist congregations, there is tremendous support for Israel

12 posted on 08/12/2006 1:54:27 PM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: wmfights

Why not just deny the Holocaust? The Jews' history in Europe is one of persecution punctuated by violent outbursts. You asked what the previous poster was refering to and I pointed out just what that was. You have a problem with that?

---The Expulsion From Spain: Year 5252. 1492 Common Era.

First England (1290 CE), then France (1394 CE), and now Spain expels every Jew who refuses to adopt Christianity. Portugal will follow shortly.

Out of six-hundred-thousand souls, a quarter-million choose to remain in Spain and convert. They are largely from the upper class. Their commitment to Judaism relies more on philosophy and intellect and less on emotion than the lower classes. They rationalize and hope that it will blow over soon, that their experience as Christians will be temporary. By staying they choose comfort. However, having abandoned Judaism, many live with anguish. They do not live as Jews; They will not die as Jews. Those who left Spain have difficulty in living as Jews; However, they will die as JewsToday, Spain is a devoutly Catholic country. Demographers estimate that ninety-percent of the population has Jewish ancestors.---

http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/timeline/expul.cfm


13 posted on 08/12/2006 2:00:09 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: wmfights

---Persecution of Jews by Roman Pagans:

70: The Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem, killed over 1 million Jews, took about 100,000 into slavery and captivity, and scattered many from Palestine to other locations in the Roman Empire.
113: Jews in Cyprus, Cyrene, Egypt and Mesopotamia revolted against the Roman Empire. This caused "the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews." 1
132: Bar Kochba led a hopeless three-year revolt against the Roman Empire. Many Jews had accepted him as the Messiah. About a half-million Jews were killed; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity. The rest were exiled from Palestine and scattered throughout the known world, adding to what is now called the "Diaspora." Judaism was no longer recognized as a legal religion. 2
135: Serious Roman persecution of the Jews began. They were forbidden, upon pain of death, from practicing circumcision, reading the Torah, eating unleavened bread at Passover, etc. A temple dedicated to the Roman pagan god Jupiter was erected on temple mountain in Jerusalem. A temple of Venus was built on Golgotha, just outside the city.
200: Roman Emperor Severus forbade religious conversions to Judaism..----

---Persecution of Jews by Christians:

Initial persecution of Jews was along religious lines. Persecution would cease if the person converted to Christianity.

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4
315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.
325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people...We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews...our worship follows a...more convenient course...we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews...How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded."
337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.
339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.
343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5
367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.
379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."
415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.
415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.
528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3
535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3
538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4
561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.
613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education
692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off." 5
694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5
722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
855: Jews were exiled from Italy
1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.
1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians." 6
1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes
1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.
1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)
1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.
1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.
1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians." 7
1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.
1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.---

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm


14 posted on 08/12/2006 2:08:38 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: wmfights

---1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..."
1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries.
1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.
1229: The Spanish inquisition starts. Later, in 1252, Pope Innocent IV authorizes the use of torture by the Inquisitors.
1236: Pope Gregory ordered that church leaders in England, France, Portugal and Spain confiscate Jewish books on the first Saturday of Lent. 1
1259: A "synod of the archdiocese in Mainz ordered Jews to wear yellow badges." 1
1261: Duke Henry III of Brabant, Belgium, stated in his will that "Jews...must be expelled from Brabant and totally annihilated so that not a single one remains, except those who are willing to trade, like all other tradesmen, without money-lending and usury." 2
1267: The Synod of Vienna ordered Jews to wear horned hats. Thomas Aquinas said that Jews should live in perpetual servitude.
1290: Jews are exiled from England. About 16,000 left the country.
1298: Jews were persecuted in Austria, Bavaria and Franconia. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed; more than 100,000 Jews were killed over a 6 month period.
1306: 100,000 Jews are exiled from France. They left with only the clothes on their backs, and food for only one day.
1320: 40,000 French shepherds went to Palestine on the Shepherd Crusade. On the way, 140 Jewish communities were destroyed.
1321: In Guienne, France, Jews were accused of having incited criminals to poison wells. 5,000 Jews were burned alive, at the stake.
1338: The councilors of Freiburg banned the performance of anti-Jewish scenes from the town's passion play because of the lethal bloody reactions against Jews which followed the performances. 9
1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans. As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for someone to blame. They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews. "In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000; Rue Brulée...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." (5) In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..." 3
1354: 12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
1374: An epidemic of possession broke out in the lower Rhine region of what is now Germany. People were seen "dancing, jumping and [engaging in] wild raving." This was triggered by enthusiastic revels on St. John's Day - an Christianized version of an ancient Pagan seasonal day of celebration which was still observed by the populace. The epidemic spread throughout the Rhine and in much of the Netherlands and Germany. Crowds of 500 or more dancers would be overcome together. Exorcisms were tried, but failed. Pilgrimages to the shrine of St. Vitus were tried, but this only seemed to exacerbate the problem. Finally, the rumor spread that God was angry because Christians had been excessively tolerant towards the Jews. God had cursed Europe as He did Saul when he showed mercy towards God's enemies in the Old Testament. Jews "were plundered, tortured and murdered by tens of thousands." The epidemic finally burned itself out two centuries later, in the late 16th century. 4
1391 : Jewish persecutions begin in Seville and in 70 other Jewish communities throughout Spain.
1394 : Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.
1431 +: The Council of Basel "forbade Jews to go to universities, prohibited them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons." 5
1434: "Jewish men in Augsburg had to sew yellow buttons to their clothes. Across Europe, Jews were forced to wear a long undergarment, an overcoat with a yellow patch, bells and tall pointed yellow hats with a large button on them." 1
1453 : The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to terminate all Jewish civil rights.
1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.
1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Christianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret.
1497: Jews were banished from Portugal. 20 thousand left the country rather than be baptized as Christians.
1516: The Governor of the Republic of Venice decided that Jews would be permitted to live only in one area of the city. It was located in the South Girolamo parish and was called the "Ghetto Novo." This was the first ghetto in Europe. Hitler made use of the concept in the 1930's.
1523: Martin Luther distributed his essay "That Jesus Was Born a Jew. " He hoped that large numbers of Jews would convert to Christianity. They didn't, and he began to write and preach hatred against them. Luther has been condemned in recent years for being extremely antisemitic. The charge has some merit; however he was probably typical of most Christians during his era.
1539: A passion play was forbidden in Rome because it prompted violent attacks against the city's Jewish residents. 9
1540: Jews were exiled from Naples.
1543: In his 20's, Martin Luther, had expected Jews to convert to Christianity in large numbers. Distressed by their reluctance, he developed a hatred for Jews, as expressed in his letters to Rev. Spalatin in 1514, when he was 31 years of age. He wrote:
"I have come to the conclusion that the Jews will always curse and blaspheme God and his King Christ, as all the prophets have predicted....For they are thus given over by the wrath of God to reprobation, that they may become incorrigible, as Ecclesiastes says, for every one who is incorrigible is rendered worse rather than better by correction." 6

In 1543, he wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :

"...eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!...What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?

First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed... They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam's children...
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews." 7

1550: Jews were exiled from Genoa and Venice.
1555-JUL-12: A Roman Catholic Papal bull, "Cum nimis absurdum," required Jews to wear badges, and live in ghettos. They were not allowed to own property outside the ghetto. Living conditions were dreadful: over 3,000 people were forced to live in about 8 acres of land. Women had to wear a yellow veil or scarf; men had to wear a piece of yellow cloth on their hat. 8
1582: Jews were expelled from Holland.
1648-9: Chmielnicki Bogdan led an uprising against Polish rule in the Ukraine. The secondary goal of Bogdan and his followers was to exterminate all Jews in the country. The massacre began with the slaughter of about 6,000 Jews in Nemirov. Other major mass murders occurred in Tulchin, Polonnoye, Volhynia, Bar, Lvov, etc. Jewish records estimate that a total of 100,000 Jews were murdered and 300 communities destroyed.---

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm


15 posted on 08/12/2006 2:11:11 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: wmfights

---Antisemitism: Persecution of Jews along Racial Lines:

Subsequent attacks against Jews tended to be racially motivated. They were perpetrated primarily by the state. The Jewish people were viewed as a separate people or race.

1806: A French Jesuit Priest, Abbe Barruel, had written a treatise blaming the Masonic Order for the French Revolution. He later issued a letter alleging that Jews, not the Masons were the guilty party. This triggered a belief in an international Jewish conspiracy in Germany, Poland and some other European countries later in the 19th century.
1819: During the late 18th and early 19th centuries, many European Jews lobbied their governments for emancipation. They sought citizenship as well as the same rights and treatment as were enjoyed by non-Jews. This appears to have provoked sporadic anti-semites to engage in anti-Jewish violence. The rioters cried "Hep! Hep!." The origin(s) of this cry are not clear. Jews and their property were attacked first in Wuerzburg, Germany during 1819-AUG. The rioting spread across Germany and eventually reached as far as Denmark and Poland. 17
1840: A rumor spread in Syria that some Jews were responsible for the ritual killing of a Roman Catholic monk and his servant. As a result of horrendous treatment, some local Jews confessed to a crime that they did not commit. This "Damascus Affair" spurred early Zionist writers like Hess to promote the Zionist cause. 17 More details.
1846 - 1878: Pope Pius IX restored all of the previous restrictions against the Jews within the Vatican state. All Jews under Papal control were confined to Rome's ghetto - the last one in Europe until the Nazi era restored the church's practice. On 2000-SEP-3, Pope John Paul II beatified Pius IX; this is the last step before sainthood. He explained: "Beatifying a son of the church does not celebrate particular historic choices that he has made, but rather points him out for imitation and for veneration for his virtue."
1858: Edgardo Mortara was kidnapped, at the age of six, from his Jewish family by Roman Catholic officials after they found out that a maid had secretly baptized him. He was not returned to his family but was raised a Catholic. He eventually became a priest.
1873: The term "antisemitism" is first used in a pamphlet by Wilhelm Marr called "Jewry's Victory over Teutonism."
1881: Alexander II of Russia was assassinated by radicals. The Jews were blamed. About 200 individual pogroms against the Jews followed. ("Pogrom" is a Russian word meaning "devastation" or "riot." In Russia, a pogrom was typically a mob riot against Jewish individuals, shops, homes or businesses. They were often supported and even organized by the government.) Thousands of Jews became homeless and impoverished. The few who were charged with offenses generally received very light sentences. 1
1893: "...anti-Semitic parties won sixteen seats in the German Reichstag." 2
1894: Captain Alfred Dreyfus, an officer on the French general staff, was convicted of treason. The evidence against him consisted of a piece of paper from his wastebasket with another person's handwriting, and papers forged by antisemitic officers. He received a life sentence on Devil's Island, off the coast of South America. The French government was aware that a Major Esterhazy was actually guilty. 3 The church, government and army united to suppress the truth. Writer Emile Zola and politician Jean Jaurès fought for justice and human rights. After 10 years, the French government fell and Drefus was declared totally innocent. The Dreyfus Affair was world-wide news for years. It motivated Journalist Theodor Herzl to write a book in 1896: "The Jewish State: A Modern Solution to the Jewish Question." The book led to the founding of the Zionist movement which fought for a Jewish Homeland. A half century later, the state of Israel was born.
1903: At Easter, government agents organized an anti-Jewish pogrom in Kishinev, Moldova, Russia. The local newspaper published a series of inflammatory articles. A Christian child was discovered murdered and a young Christian woman at the Jewish Hospital committed suicide. Jews were blamed for the deaths. Violence ensured. The 5,000 soldiers in the town did nothing. When the smoke cleared, 49 Jews had been killed, 500 were injured; 700 homes looted and destroyed, 600 businesses and shops looted, 2000 families left homeless. Later, it was discovered that the child had been murdered by its relatives and the suicide was unrelated to the Jews. 4
1905: The Okhrana, the Russian secret police in the reign of Czar Nicholas II, converted an earlier antisemitic novel into a document called the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion." 16 It was published privately in 1897. A Russian Orthodox priest, Sergius Nilus, published them publicly in 1905. It was promoted as the record of "secret rabbinical conferences whose aim was to subjugate and exterminate the Christians." 5 The Protocols were used by the Okhrana in a propaganda campaign that was associated with massacres of the Jews. These were the Czarist Pogroms of 1905.
1915: 600,000 Jews were forcibly moved from the western borders of Russia towards the interior. About 100,000 died of exposure or starvation.
1917: "In the civil war following the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the reactionary White Armies made extensive use of the Protocols to incite widespread slaughters of Jews." 5 Two hundred thousand Jews were murdered in the Ukraine alone.
1920: The Protocols reach England and the United States. They are exposed as a forgery, but are widely circulated. Henry Ford sponsored a study of international activities of Jews. This led to a series of antisemitic articles in the Dearborn Independent, which were published in a book, "The International Jew." The Protocols were sold on Wal-Mart's online bookstore until they were removed on 2004-SEP-21.
1920: The defeat of Germany in World War I and the continuing economic difficulties were blamed in that country on the "Jewish influence." One antisemitic poster has been preserved from that era. 6 It shows a German, presumably Christian woman, a male Jew with distorted facial features, a coffin and the word "Deutschland" (Germany)
1920's, 1930's: Hitler had published in Mein Kampf in 1925, writing: "Today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." The Protocols are used by the Nazis to whip up public hatred of the Jews in the 1930's. Widespread pogroms occur in Greece, Hungary, Mexico, Poland, Rumania, and the USSR. Radio programs by many conservative American clergy, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, frequently attacked Jews. Reverend Fr. Charles E Coughlin was one of the best known. "In the 1930's, radio audiences heard him rail against the threat of Jews to America's economy and defend Hitler's treatment of Jews as justified in the fight against communism." (12) Other conservative Christian leaders, such as Frank Norris and John Straton supported the Jews. 7
Discrimination against Jews in North America is widespread. Many universities set limits on the maximum number of Jewish students that they would accept. Harvard accepted all students on the basis of merit until after World War I when the percentage of Jewish students approached 15%. At that time they installed an informal quota system. In 1941, Princeton had fewer than 2% Jews in their student body. Jews were routinely barred from country clubs, prestigious neighborhoods, etc. 8

1933: Hitler took power in Germany. On APR-1, Julius Streicher organized a one-day boycott of all Jewish owned busienss in the country. This was the start of continuous oppression by the Nazis culminating in the Holocaust (a.k.a. Shoah). Jews "were barred from civil service, legal professions and universities, were not allowed to teach in schools and could not be editors of newspapers." 2 Two years later, Jews were no longer considered citizens.
1934: Various laws were enacted in Germany to force Jews out of schools and professions.
1935: The Nazis passed the Nuremberg Laws restricting citizenship to those of "German or related blood." Jews became stateless.
1936: Cardinal Hloud of Poland urged Catholics to boycott Jewish businesses.
1938: On NOV-9, the Nazi government in Germany sent storm troopers, the SS and the Hitler Youth on a pogrom that killed 91 Jews, injured hundreds, burned 177 synagogues and looted 7,500 Jewish stores. Broken glass could be seen everywhere; the glass gave this event its name of Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass. 9
1938: Hitler brought back century-old church law, ordering all Jews to wear a yellow Star of David as identification. A few hundred thousand Jews are allowed to leave Germany after they give all of their assets to the government.
1939: The Holocaust, the Shoah -- the systematic extermination of Jews in Germany -- begins. The process only ended in 1945 with the conclusion of World War II. Approximately 6 million Jews (1.5 million of them children), 400 thousand Roma (Gypsies) and others were slaughtered. Some were killed by death squads; others were slowly killed in trucks with carbon monoxide; others were gassed in large groups in Auschwitz, Dacau, Sobibor, Treblinka and other extermination camps. Officially, the holocaust was described by the Nazis as subjecting Jews "to special treatment" or as a "solution of the Jewish question." Gold taken from the teeth of the victims was recycled; hair was used in the manufacture of mattresses. In the Buchenwald extermination camp, lampshades were made out of human skin; however, this appears to be an isolated incident. A rumor spread that Jewish corpses were routinely converted into soap. However, the story appears to be false. 10
1940: The Vichy government of France collaborated with Nazi Germany by freezing about 80,000 Jewish bank accounts. During the next four years, they deported about 76,000 Jews to Nazi death camps; only about 2,500 survived. It was only in 1995 that a French president, Jacques Chirac, "was able to admit that the state bore a heavy share of responsibility in the mass round-ups and deportations of Jews, as well as in the property and asset seizures that were carried out with the active help of the Vichy regime." 11
1941: The Holocaust Museum in Washington DC estimates that 13,000 Jews died on 1941-JUN-19 during a pogrom in Bucharest, Romania. It was ordered by the pro-Nazi Romanian regime of Marshal Ion Antonescu. The current government has admitted that this atrocity happened, but most Romanians continue to deny that the Jews were killed on orders from their own government. 12
1941: Polish citizens in Jedwabne in northeastern Poland killed hundreds of Jews, by either beating them to death or burning them alive in a barn. According to the Associated Press: "The role played by Polish citizens was suppressed for nearly six decades until publication of a book by a Polish emigre historian, Jan Tomasz Gross. After release of the book in 2000, the Polish government launched an investigation. 'The role of the Poles was decisive in conducting the criminal act,' [prosecutor Radoslaw] Ignatiew, said. The book, 'Neighbours,' sparked national soul-searching among Poles, many of whom could not believe that anybody but the Nazis would have committed the atrocity." 13
1942: The Nazi leaders of Germany, at the Wannsee conference, decided on"the final solution of the Jewish question" which was the attempt to exterminate every Jew in Europe. From JUL-28 to 31, almost 18,000 Russian inhabitants of the Minsk ghetto in what is now Belarus were exterminated. This was in addition to 5,000 to 15,000 who had been massacred in earlier pogroms in that city. This was just one of many such pogroms during World War II. 14
1945: The Shoah (Holocaust) ended as the Allied Forces over-ran the Nazi death camps.
1946: Even though World War II ended the year before, antisemitic pogroms continued, particularly in Poland, with the deaths of many Jews.---

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm


16 posted on 08/12/2006 2:13:41 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: claudiustg

Hey read anything in history about the great "Southern Baptist" repressions of Jews....that's right, you won't find anything...though you could argue that their pot-luck suppers may have a bit more pork than the average Jew would care to ingest, especially in the South!

How about the great "Charismatic and Pentecostal Christian" sponsored pogroms of the Jews.....nahhh you won't find anything about that either in history, though Jews may find them selves hugged, prayed over in strange languages(sometimes even in Hebrew much to the surprise of one Jewish person I heard about), anointed with oil and other wise just generally loved!

Any anti-Jewish static from Missoura Synod Lutherans(not the German Lutheran Church)...nope!!

Do you see the pattern, Israel's greatest supporter come from evangelical conservative Churches....

Naturally you've been reading about Tom Hagee and his efforts in support of Israel....right?


17 posted on 08/12/2006 2:19:10 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Proof against evolution:"Man is the only creature that blushes, or needs to" M.Twain)
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To: claudiustg

Maybe we can amend this thread to read:

American Christians are Jews' best friends


18 posted on 08/12/2006 2:25:29 PM PDT by Canedawg (In God We Trust)
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To: claudiustg
"Why not just deny the Holocaust? The Jews' history in Europe is one of persecution punctuated by violent outbursts. You asked what the previous poster was refering to and I pointed out just what that was. You have a problem with that? "
________________________________

I think my historical reference speaks for itself. BTW, in your posted response I did not see any reference to Christian denominations making it doctrine that Jews should be persecuted.
19 posted on 08/12/2006 2:27:16 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: mdmathis6

I have to admit from reading some of those books that were posted I was surprised to see that the Eastern Orthodox had persecuted the Jews. Anyway, I thought your post was right on target.


20 posted on 08/12/2006 2:36:57 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: wmfights
Your not going to make the claim the Nazis were Christians are you?

I didn't mean to imply that only Christians have persecuted Jews during the past 2000 years, but the title of the article was "Christains are Jews' best friends".
claudiustg has done a pretty good job of documenting some instances of Jewish persecution throughout history.
As for the Nazis, maybe they wouldn't have been as "successful" in their slaughter of the Jews had our Christian grandparents and great grandparents petitioned the U.S. and Canadian Gov't not to turn back shiploads of Jewish refugees from Nazi Europe - sending them directly back to the death camps.
Being friends when times are good and it doesn't cost you anything is less important than what happens if things were to go south..
E.G. The Great Depression saw a massive increase in anti-semitism in the U.S. - but that could never happen again, eh?

21 posted on 08/12/2006 2:42:54 PM PDT by CaptainCanada (Citizenship which costs nothing is worth nothing..........................................)
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To: claudiustg; wmfights
Aside from the reality that the Nazis weren't Christians and in fact persecuted them - oh, & btw, thanks for hijacking the thread repeatedly lecturing us all - why not post some data on Jews being disproportionally represented among the perpetrators of the Ukrainian holocaust?

As I stated earlier "... there's definitely blood on both side's hands ..." - why not just leave it at that?
22 posted on 08/12/2006 2:44:37 PM PDT by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: GMMAC

---why not post some data on Jews being disproportionally represented among the perpetrators of the Ukrainian holocaust?---

Well, why don't you?

And rather than repeating your innuendo

---As I stated earlier "... there's definitely blood on both side's hands ..." - why not just leave it at that?---

Why don't you spell it out with links as I have done?


23 posted on 08/12/2006 2:50:08 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: GMMAC

Ogden Nash:
"How odd/of God/to choose/the Jews
"
Someone else:
"But not/as odd/as those who choose/a Jewish God/then spurn the Jews."

Some real Christians get crossthreaded about the Jews and their still-exalted position in Shaddai's Plan.

And some people are phonies.


24 posted on 08/12/2006 2:57:13 PM PDT by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: claudiustg; blam; GMMAC
Demographers estimate that ninety-percent of the population (of Spain) has Jewish ancestors.

Really? I didn't know that.

There must be many Jewish people who have converted to Christianity or Judaism over the centuries.

25 posted on 08/12/2006 3:01:06 PM PDT by fanfan (The MSM has no clothes.)
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To: claudiustg
Instead, why not simply contrast our respective posting histories on FR over, say, the past couple of weeks?

I've posted over a dozen articles supportive of Israel while you've ... ???

... other than, of course, disrupting this latest inter-Faith friendly thread with a pile of self-indulgent, long-winded 'our shit don't stink but yours sure does' garbage.
26 posted on 08/12/2006 3:06:18 PM PDT by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: GMMAC
..... Jews being disproportionally represented among the perpetrators of the Ukrainian holocaust?

Really? In WWI?

My Grandfather came over in 1905.

27 posted on 08/12/2006 3:09:34 PM PDT by fanfan (The MSM has no clothes.)
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To: GMMAC

---Instead, why not simply contrast our respective posting histories on FR over, say, the past couple of weeks?---

Actually i think I'd like to see your material on " Jews being disproportionally represented among the perpetrators of the Ukrainian holocaust".

and " "... there's definitely blood on both side's hands ..."

You brought it up and now you're trying to change the subject.

And that

"pile of self-indulgent, long-winded 'our shit don't stink but yours sure does' garbage."

was a chronological history of the persecution of the Jews, taken from reputable sources complete with links, brought up in response to a poster's request for examples.


28 posted on 08/12/2006 3:23:15 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: GMMAC
"... other than, of course, disrupting this latest inter-Faith friendly thread with a pile of self-indulgent, long-winded 'our shit don't stink but yours sure does' garbage."
___________________________________

Well said.
29 posted on 08/12/2006 4:02:02 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: GMMAC; fanfan
A snippet from my usually pulled profile page:

My wife was Organist-Director of Music from 1984-2001 here:

-bethtefilloh--

Here's a little background on our association with the Temple;

Back in 1984, when we met & married, she was the Organist/Choir Director at St. Mark's Episcopal, which is a block away from the Temple. Both institutions have enjoyed a long history of fellowship; they were built in the 1880's, and the first organist at St. Mark's, Guy Hackett, was also the Temple's first organist.

Right before we married, the Temple's President, Phil Salkin, wanders into the office and mentions that "their organist just retired, how'd you like another job whose hours won't conflict with the ones here?"
( Phil was an old friend of her family's, and mine, from way back... )
She thought it sounded interesting, accepted, and indeed we cut our honeymoon short so she could return for her debut there.

The next year she convinced her choir ( I was a member, naturally ) that singing for the High Holy Days would be a challenging & interesting thing to do, and the St. Mark's Choir has done so every year since. This will be the first year she misses, I'm not sure what, if anything, the choir will do in her absence.

Her resignation last week was a source of considerable grief; we've enjoyed a long & very congenial relationship with the Temple, indeed last year the Sisterhood inducted her as a member, much to her delight.

30 posted on 08/12/2006 4:17:04 PM PDT by backhoe (Just an Old Keyboard Cowboy, Ridin' the Trakball into the Dawn of Information)
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To: GMMAC

The shooter got no attention because, as a Mohammedan, he was expected to do what he did. It is part of his Mohammedan lifestyle and culture and highlighting it or condemning it would be insensitive to another culture.


31 posted on 08/12/2006 4:18:04 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them over THERE than over HERE)
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To: fanfan
"Demographers estimate that ninety-percent of the population (of Spain) has Jewish ancestors."

Really? I didn't know that.

"There must be many Jewish people who have converted to Christianity or Judaism over the centuries."

I would look to the Moors as the largest 'outside' contributors of DNA in the Iberian area.

32 posted on 08/12/2006 4:19:13 PM PDT by blam
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To: CaptainCanada

You seem to be laboring under the misconception that because a person is a member of a particular denomination that makes them a Christian.


33 posted on 08/12/2006 4:27:50 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: backhoe

Why did she resign?


34 posted on 08/12/2006 4:30:17 PM PDT by fanfan (The MSM has no clothes.)
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To: CaptainCanada

What the h*** are you talking about? Outside of Israel, the largest population of Jews in the world is found in the USA. Not Canada. The USA. A proudly Christian nation and unashamed to admit it.


35 posted on 08/12/2006 4:31:11 PM PDT by JCEccles
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To: claudiustg
Right. The Holocaust was a Christian operation against the Jews. Reverend Adolph led his congregation against the Hebrews.

Hitler was explicitly Pagan and his movement was pagan. He intended to replace Christianity with traditional Germanic paganism and many Christians died for being Christians.

36 posted on 08/12/2006 4:35:44 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them over THERE than over HERE)
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To: arthurus

---Right. The Holocaust was a Christian operation against the Jews. Reverend Adolph led his congregation against the Hebrews.---

I certainly said nothing of the sort. Are you saying that I did? Point to it exactly.


37 posted on 08/12/2006 4:39:25 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: claudiustg

How long do you think Israel will last without us supporting her?


38 posted on 08/12/2006 4:45:31 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: wmfights

As long as G-d wills.


39 posted on 08/12/2006 4:47:04 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: GMMAC

The subject of this thread is so self-obviously true.

One can only shake one's head and wonder, why Jewish voters tend strongly to, ignoring common sense - support DEMOCRATS.

The mind boggles.


40 posted on 08/12/2006 4:48:03 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: claudiustg
"As long as G-d wills."
____________________________

Seems reasonable. Why not get the movement going so Israel can stand alone. Rally all your supporters to get us to stop sending aid and to no longer veto all those motions in the UN.
41 posted on 08/12/2006 4:51:15 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: wmfights

Now you are extrapolating things that were not in anyway contained in the original argument. You asked for examples here:

---" During the past 2000 years, when Christians weren't persecuting Jews, we were their best friends - and with friends like us, who needed enemies..."
__________________________

What are you referring to, be specific.---

I provided them. That was all. You don't like it for some reason. That's too bad.


42 posted on 08/12/2006 4:57:33 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: JCEccles
What the h*** are you talking about? Outside of Israel, the largest population of Jews in the world is found in the USA. Not Canada. The USA. A proudly Christian nation and unashamed to admit it.

Huh? What are you talking about. I did not reference the Jewish population in the U.S. nor whether or not the U.S. is a proudly Christian nation...
What does any of that have to do with the price of wheat in China???
What specifically did I say that seems to have confused you or to which you would like clarification??

43 posted on 08/12/2006 5:39:46 PM PDT by CaptainCanada (Citizenship which costs nothing is worth nothing..........................................)
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To: claudiustg; wmfights; fanfan; backhoe
If you truly believe all the wrongs over the past 2000 years can be laid exclusively at one side's doorstep, it's pointless - and beyond that counter-productive - to discuss them as we'll never agree. Rather than dwell in the past, my intent with this and numerous other posts is to encoutage harmonious mutual repect in the present.

Multiple comments, consisting of thousands of characters, are self-evidently not a reasonable reponse to a single request to merely "be specific".

As for "reputable source", three of your multiple responses come from the self-proclaimed "ReligiousToleranc.org" a less than mainstream, ultra-liberal site which opposes capital punishment under all circumstances, is ambivalent - at best! - about abortion, boasts "We define "religious tolerance" differently from some people" and goes on, among many outrageous examples of same, to rail against George W. Bush & Bob Barr for disparaging Wiccan practices in the U.S. Military !!!

Really "reputable" - LOL !!!
44 posted on 08/12/2006 5:59:13 PM PDT by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: GMMAC

---why not post some data on Jews being disproportionally represented among the perpetrators of the Ukrainian holocaust?

As I stated earlier "... there's definitely blood on both side's hands ..." - why not just leave it at that?---

I'm still waiting for your documentation of these things.

---Multiple comments, consisting of thousands of characters, are self-evidently not a reasonable response to a single request to merely "be specific". ---

It is certainly reasonable when the request covers a period of 2000 years. There was a lot of persecution over a long period of time. You ridicule the website.

Do you ridicule the history?


45 posted on 08/12/2006 6:21:27 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: claudiustg
"I provided them. That was all. You don't like it for some reason. That's too bad."
______________________________

No you misunderstand. You've made it clear that you don't think Israel needs any supporters and I'm encouraging you to get your movement going to cut our aid. You seem to want to lump all Christians into one group, that's fine.
46 posted on 08/12/2006 6:43:14 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: GMMAC
"If you truly believe all the wrongs over the past 2000 years can be laid exclusively at one side's doorstep, it's pointless - and beyond that counter-productive - to discuss them as we'll never agree."
__________________________________

I think a good point has been made though. If Christians are such terrible people who did all these terrible things to the Jews Israel should stop seeking aid from us and stand on her own two feet.
47 posted on 08/12/2006 6:47:42 PM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: wmfights

---No you misunderstand. You've made it clear that you don't think Israel needs any supporters and I'm encouraging you to get your movement going to cut our aid. ---

Show me where I did that! You are creating things out of thin air!

Before I depart this happy company, let me just say this about Mel. What disturbs me about the whole affair is that the damage caused by his comments was not to Jews, but to himself and his reputation.

His apologies are not intended to heal the harm that he has done to Jews, but rather to heal the harm he has done to his own reputation. As such, all the continuing blather just strikes me as desperate self-serving pabulum.

Good day!


48 posted on 08/12/2006 7:01:47 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: wmfights

---I think a good point has been made though. If Christians are such terrible people who did all these terrible things to the Jews Israel should stop seeking aid from us and stand on her own two feet.---

Some best friends you guys turned out to be! :^)


49 posted on 08/12/2006 7:03:33 PM PDT by claudiustg (Equivalence is depravity.)
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To: claudiustg; wmfights; fanfan; backhoe
It's quite plainly a left-wing morally relativist website worthy of ridicule and, beyond being a fool to use it as a "reputable" citation on a conservative forum, you arrogantly clogged the thread with pages & pages of its - based on it's other content- 'questionable' information.

Given both that I've posted numerous pro Jewish/Israel articles and fairly conceded up front that there was right & wrong among the past conduct of adherents of both Faiths, asking me "Do you ridicule the history?" is a self-evidently moronic question unworthy of any further reply.

Latching onto my passing reference to the Ukrainian holocaust while ignoring a similar one to St. Stephen indicates you are disingenuous while refusing to concede past wrongs went both ways marks you as a zealot.
50 posted on 08/12/2006 7:05:53 PM PDT by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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