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Cardinal Warns About Colombia Abortion
NY Times ^ | August 30, 2006 | Associated Press

Posted on 08/30/2006 3:19:02 PM PDT by Stone Mountain

Cardinal Warns About Colombia Abortion

BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) -- A leading cardinal said the Vatican will excommunicate the doctors who performed Colombia's first legal abortion on an 11-year old girl who allegedly was raped by her stepfather.

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, made the announcement in an interview with RCN television Tuesday.

''Every Christian Catholic who submits to an abortion, whether it be directly or indirectly, will be excommunicated,'' Lopez said.

It was not immediately clear if he also was referring to the girl and her family.

[... cut to excerpt]

The secretary of Colombia's Episcopal Conference, Monsignor Fabian Marulanda, said he doubted that the Vatican would take the formal steps of excommunicating the doctors, but that the doctors should consider themselves excommunicated until they submit to penance.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; cardinal; catholic; colombia; colombian; vatican
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1 posted on 08/30/2006 3:19:02 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: Stone Mountain

could someone explain to me why an 11 year old should be required to bear the child of what is surely the most horrific experience of her short life?


2 posted on 08/30/2006 3:30:24 PM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
could someone explain to me why an 11 year old should be required to bear the child of what is surely the most horrific experience of her short life?

Could you expalin to me why such a horrible experience should be made worse by KILLING another child?

3 posted on 08/30/2006 3:36:16 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (The California Republican Party needs Arnold the way a drowning man needs an anvil.)
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To: ElkGroveDan
Could you expalin to me why such a horrible experience should be made worse by KILLING another child?

Safety of the mother.

4 posted on 08/30/2006 3:42:28 PM PDT by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

"could someone explain to me why an 11 year old should be required to bear the child of what is surely the most horrific experience of her short life?"

To do otherwise is to place ones own judgement ahead of God's.



5 posted on 08/30/2006 3:43:00 PM PDT by TalBlack
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To: raybbr
Safety of the mother.

The abortion is going to cause far more health complications down the road, than a cesarean birth would.

6 posted on 08/30/2006 3:46:36 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (The California Republican Party needs Arnold the way a drowning man needs an anvil.)
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To: TalBlack

Bull.

God had nothing to do with the act of the bastard who raped her. You want to put the cart before the horse.


7 posted on 08/30/2006 3:47:57 PM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: Stone Mountain

I have to disagree with the Cardinal. Priorities are out of order. Condemning the rapist would be great too. I don't understand the process of excommunication. Why are some excommunicated and others not? Why does an innocent 11 year old year girl face excommunication but a rapist doesn't. I'm a Roman Catholic myself and I am curious.


8 posted on 08/30/2006 3:49:29 PM PDT by cyborg (No I don't miss the single life at all.)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

"could someone explain to me why an 11 year old should be required to bear the child of what is surely the most horrific experience of her short life?"

Could you tell me what crime her baby committed that it deserved to be killed?


9 posted on 08/30/2006 3:49:45 PM PDT by dsc
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To: ElkGroveDan

Could you explain to me why I should care?


10 posted on 08/30/2006 3:49:56 PM PDT by verity (The MSM is comprised of useless eaters)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

If the death penalty is to be brutally applied to one of the principals to this case, shouldn't it be applied to the step father?


11 posted on 08/30/2006 3:50:41 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Stone Mountain

I would be fine with this as long as the Church also called for the execution of the "father" who raped the girl. After all, the commandment is "Thou Shall Not Murder", not "kill". Execution of the guilty is sanctioned by God.


12 posted on 08/30/2006 3:51:33 PM PDT by montag813
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To: dsc

the crime was committed upon this 11 year old child.


13 posted on 08/30/2006 3:51:38 PM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: verity
Could you explain to me why I should care?

I never said you should care. But those of us who count ourselves among the civilized members of the human race do care about innocent children being killed.

14 posted on 08/30/2006 3:52:36 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (The California Republican Party needs Arnold the way a drowning man needs an anvil.)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

"the crime was committed upon this 11 year old child."

A crime was committed upon her, yes. Did the baby commit that crime? Why does he share in the guilt? Why is it okay to kill him because someone else committed a crime?


15 posted on 08/30/2006 3:53:37 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
Don't you know that the rights, wishes, and welfare of the 11 year-old girl don't matter? She's just a receptacle. /sarcasm
16 posted on 08/30/2006 3:55:07 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: ElkGroveDan
The abortion is going to cause far more health complications down the road, than a cesarean birth would.

Perhaps. But, the emotional damage will last a lifetime. Not to mention giving birth to a bastard by rape.

17 posted on 08/30/2006 3:55:45 PM PDT by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: Huntress

"Don't you know that the rights, wishes, and welfare of the 11 year-old girl don't matter?"

Can you tell me where she gets the right to kill an innocent human being?


18 posted on 08/30/2006 3:56:12 PM PDT by dsc
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To: ElkGroveDan
Sanctimonious every-life-is-precious BS.
19 posted on 08/30/2006 3:57:02 PM PDT by verity (The MSM is comprised of useless eaters)
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To: raybbr

" But, the emotional damage will last a lifetime. Not to mention giving birth to a bastard by rape."

The emotional damage of the abortion will also last a lifetime.

That said, admitting that things are terrible for her, what is the source of the right to kill an innocent human being?


20 posted on 08/30/2006 3:57:28 PM PDT by dsc
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To: verity; Admin Moderator
Sanctimonious every-life-is-precious BS.

Are you for real? Did that statement come from someone who talks about "useless eaters" in their tagline? Is this some kind of sick joke?

21 posted on 08/30/2006 4:00:37 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (The California Republican Party needs Arnold the way a drowning man needs an anvil.)
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To: verity

No, he's just speaking the simple truth.

If you don't care about innocent children being killed, you're not civilized.


22 posted on 08/30/2006 4:00:57 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

This girl is an innocent human being, too. She did ask to be raped, and she did not consent to conceive and carry a child. This is a rare case, and one where her rights trump those of the unborn child, IMO.


23 posted on 08/30/2006 4:03:10 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Huntress

did ask=did NOT ask


24 posted on 08/30/2006 4:04:14 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Huntress

"This is a rare case, and one where her rights trump those of the unborn child, IMO."

What is the source of her right to kill an innocent human being?

How can anyone possibly have the right to kill an innocent human being?


25 posted on 08/30/2006 4:08:02 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

In this case, the law of her country is the source of her right.


26 posted on 08/30/2006 4:09:26 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Huntress

"and she did not consent to conceive and carry a child."

Well, you know, that's one of those places where life just sucks a rock. Doesn't matter if a woman consents to conceive. Once she does, there's another human being involved, and that human being has an absolute right not to be killed.


27 posted on 08/30/2006 4:09:37 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

With respect to moral or religious law, I note that not every religion prohibits abortion in all circumstances. I understand that the Catholic Church takes this position, but I'm not Catholic. In any event, I'm not interested in engaging in a debate regarding theology.


28 posted on 08/30/2006 4:12:03 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Huntress

"In this case, the law of her country is the source of her right."

No wonder America is foundering.

The reason that America is the best country ever conceived is that it put into practice the principle that our rights do not come from government, but from God. We are endowed by our Creator with unalienable rights, and government has no rightful power to interfere with the exercise thereof.

Government has no rightful power to confer upon one person the right to kill another, innocent person.

If you are depending on government for your right to slaughter innocent babies, you rely on fiction.

There is not, and can never be, a right to kill innocent people.


29 posted on 08/30/2006 4:13:27 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

So by your logic, if continuing a pregancy would likely be fatal to a woman, she should be forced to do so anyway?


30 posted on 08/30/2006 4:15:01 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

"Bull.

God had nothing to do with the act of the bastard who raped her. You want to put the cart before the horse."

I honestly don't know WTF the above quote means or how it pertains.

In any event:

God created a mechanisim for the creation of life and He calls all Life Sacred. Life is not rendered un-sacred by a heinous act.



31 posted on 08/30/2006 4:15:21 PM PDT by TalBlack
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
could someone explain to me why an 11 year old should be required to bear the child of what is surely the most horrific experience of her short life?

What I always love about this hard case is the assumption that an abortion is the best thing for the 11 year-old. Notice that nobody ever seems terribly concerned about what she wants or how she feels about it. To a degree, that's reasonable since an 11 year-old's consent either way is questionable but the assumption that she's best off aborting the baby is not necessarily true. If she grows up and considers abortion murder, she will have to live her life knowing that people murdered her child. If she grows up and considers abortion a right and wasn't allowed to have one, she'll resent those who forced her to have a child she didn't want. Which of those options is ultimately worse for her psyche? And don't think that women don't regret abortions they are pushed through by friends, relatives, and other adults when they are young.

32 posted on 08/30/2006 4:16:58 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: ElkGroveDan

A raped 11 year old girl should not be condemned to be the incubating machine of her rapist.


33 posted on 08/30/2006 4:17:14 PM PDT by PresbyRev
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
the crime was committed upon this 11 year old child.

Absolutely. And if she grows up for any reason thinking that abortion is murder or wanting the child she was carrying, two crimes will have been committed upon this 11 year-old child.

34 posted on 08/30/2006 4:18:19 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: dsc

As I said in a previous post, I think this a rare case where an abortion is justified. You focus on your opposition to all abortions without one word regarding the welfare of the 11 year old child who was impregnated by rape. Does she not matter?


35 posted on 08/30/2006 4:20:31 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Huntress
This girl is an innocent human being, too. She did ask to be raped, and she did not consent to conceive and carry a child. This is a rare case, and one where her rights trump those of the unborn child, IMO

In cases like these, the 11 year-old can't reliably consent either way, and that's the problem. It's easy to assume that she's better of having the abortion but she can't consent to that, either. Consider if, instead of accepting the choice that was made for her, she decided that she wanted the child she was carrying and considers the baby's abortion the murder of her child. What kind of crime would that be against her, compared to the hardshiop of forcing her to carry a child she doesn't want?

36 posted on 08/30/2006 4:21:42 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

Kill the stepfather! Save the baby!


37 posted on 08/30/2006 4:25:11 PM PDT by stocksthatgoup ("Is it real? Or is it Reuters?")
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To: Huntress

"You focus on your opposition to all abortions without one word regarding the welfare of the 11 year old child who was impregnated by rape."

Others are carrying that banner quite adequately without my joining in.

"Does she not matter?"

Of course she does. Now, who speaks for the innocent baby that was brutally killed, or the next innocent baby that will be brutally killed?

A terrible thing happened to that girl, but you can't right it by killing her baby.

Besides, it doesn't matter whether you can right it or not, because nobody has any right to kill an innocent baby. Ever. Period.


38 posted on 08/30/2006 4:26:14 PM PDT by dsc (o)
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To: cyborg
Why does an innocent 11 year old year girl face excommunication but a rapist doesn't. I'm a Roman Catholic myself and I am curious.

She doesn't face excommunication.

FYI:

Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:

1/ a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;


39 posted on 08/30/2006 4:26:16 PM PDT by B Knotts (Newt '08!)
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To: Question_Assumptions

You're right. The ability--or lack thereof--of an 11 year old to consent is a big problem. But I am much more comfortable with that decision being made by her parents than by someone who doesn't know her and just wants to impose their ideology on her.


40 posted on 08/30/2006 4:27:09 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

Don't be so sure. I actually saw a post here on FR from someone who said that a scenario like this could happen because "God REALLY wants this girl to become a mother". He was raked over the coals by some other posters, but that sentiment is out there on this site, believe me.


41 posted on 08/30/2006 4:29:20 PM PDT by linda_22003
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To: dsc
Besides, it doesn't matter whether you can right it or not, because nobody has any right to kill an innocent baby. Ever. Period.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

42 posted on 08/30/2006 4:29:26 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: B Knotts
1/ a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;

Counted from conception? (Duck'n & run'n)

43 posted on 08/30/2006 4:30:25 PM PDT by The Red Zone
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To: dsc
That said, admitting that things are terrible for her, what is the source of the right to kill an innocent human being?

Was it born yet?

Sorry, I have no problem with this. An eleven year old girl should not be forced into this. The memory of the abortion will fade but the child would have been a constant reminder of the horror imposed on her.

44 posted on 08/30/2006 4:30:44 PM PDT by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: Question_Assumptions
What kind of crime would that be against her, compared to the hardshiop of forcing her to carry a child she doesn't want?

Well, that might kill her. She's eleven.

45 posted on 08/30/2006 4:32:29 PM PDT by ahayes ("If intelligent design evolved from creationism, then why are there still creationists?"--Quark2005)
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To: raybbr

Aborting mothers have problems too, such as wondering about the child that would have been but she had its life stopped. There are stories of hearing phantom cries in the night and the like. Was some effort made to let the girl know ALL the possibilities?


46 posted on 08/30/2006 4:33:19 PM PDT by The Red Zone
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To: Huntress

"So by your logic"

Just a minute. Get one thing straight. This is not "my logic." This is a position that has been widely held throughout Western Civilization for a couple of thousand years. That's what you're arguing against; not just some faceless turkey on the internet.

"if continuing a pregancy would likely be fatal to a woman, she should be forced to do so anyway?"

Tendentiously phrased, wouldn't you say? "Forced," as though to say "Of course she would kill her baby to save herself."


47 posted on 08/30/2006 4:33:27 PM PDT by dsc (o)
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To: dsc

So what's your answer?


48 posted on 08/30/2006 4:34:09 PM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: dsc

For thousands of years an abortion wasn't possible without seriously sickening and likely killing the mother. Usual approach for barbarians was to strangle the child as it emerged. (Now we use scissors, I guess that's better.)


49 posted on 08/30/2006 4:35:44 PM PDT by The Red Zone
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To: raybbr

"Was it born yet?"

What happens at birth? Does the blue fairy appear, wave her magic want, and turn a "fetus" into a real baby?

Life begins at conception.

"The memory of the abortion will fade"

It's more likely to cause mental illness than to fade.

"but the child would have been a constant reminder of the horror imposed on her."

She could give it up for adoption.


50 posted on 08/30/2006 4:36:26 PM PDT by dsc (o)
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