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A Giuliani Conservative Tilts at Religion
NY Observer ^ | September 6 2006 | Niall Stanage

Posted on 09/06/2006 9:13:55 AM PDT by Reagan Man

Rudolph Giuliani has repeatedly extended the hand of friendship to Christian conservatives in recent months. But a leading member of a think tank closely associated with the former Mayor has just delivered a powerful jab to the face of the same constituency.

Mr. Giuliani, long viewed with suspicion by the religious right because of his pro-choice, pro-civil-union positions, went so far as to campaign for former Christian Coalition leader Ralph Reed back in May. The move was widely seen as an attempt to curry favor with a voting bloc that will play a crucial role in electing the Republican Presidential candidate in 2008.

But last month, Heather Mac Donald—a fellow at the Manhattan Institute, the organization that served as a semi-official brain trust to Mr. Giuliani during his time in Gracie Mansion—mounted a brazen frontal assault on the politics of piety. Moreover, she chose Pat Buchanan’s magazine, The American Conservative, as the unlikely platform from which to do so.

Ms. Mac Donald is a heroine to many in the conservative movement, in part because of her robust attacks on everything from feminist ideology (“lunacy”) to The New York Times (“a national security threat”).

She is also, not incidentally, a self-described nonbeliever.

“Skeptical conservatives—one of the Right’s less celebrated subcultures—are conservatives because of their skepticism, not in spite of it,” she wrote in the Aug. 28 issue of The American Conservative. “They ground their ideas in rational thinking and (nonreligious) moral argument. And the conservative movement is crippling itself by leaning too heavily on religion to the exclusion of these temperamentally compatible allies.”

The article ignited a firestorm that continues to sweep across conservative opinion journals and Web sites. Pundits including John Podhoretz, Ramesh Ponnuru and Jonah Goldberg have, to varying extents, made their disagreement plain. Philosophy professor (and Opus Dei member) Michael Pakaluk has complained that Ms. Mac Donald’s “mockery of common religious sensibilities … is so unfeeling as to border on the inhuman.”

Asked about the timing of her article, Ms. Mac Donald suggested that her exasperation with the religiosity of present-day conservatism had simply reached a boiling point.

“I’ve just been impatient over the last six years,” she told The Observer. “I don’t remember anything like this current assumption that candidates should talk about their relationship with God. What is that supposed to tell citizens?”

There is no suggestion that the Manhattan Institute fellow is doing Mr. Giuliani’s bidding in making the controversial case for secular conservatism. On the contrary, Ms. Mac Donald’s argument is more likely to be met with consternation by allies of the former Mayor, for fear that it could dynamite the bridges to the religious right that they have been so assiduously trying to build.

Baruch College political-science professor Gerald De Maio, who teaches a course on religion and politics, believes that the debates about a Giuliani candidacy—and about the issues raised by Ms. Mac Donald’s article—are manifestations of the longstanding divide in the G.O.P. between social conservatives and libertarians.

The libertarian wing, he said, “is muted. They count for much less than they used to. In many ways, Gerald Ford was the last President to represent that tendency. Now, one of the questions is: Could Rudy Giuliani get the nomination as a social liberal? I can’t see how social conservatives in the heartland can back him.”

Ms. Mac Donald admiringly told The Observer that the former Mayor “never invoked God, but transformed this city in ways that couldn’t have been imagined.” But she insisted that her main concern wasn’t electoral politics. She was, she said, more interested in the need for “a sound philosophical basis for conservative argument.”

That may sound like a nebulous aim. But it is also an honorable one.

When the President names Jesus Christ as his favorite political philosopher, uses a sly phrase like “wonder-working power” during a manifestly political occasion like a State of the Union address or invokes God in support of his decisions in Iraq, he seeks, at the minimum, to give his agenda a religious veneer.

The invocation of religion in support of political beliefs is, above all else, a dangerously effective tool for foreclosing debate, discouraging scrutiny and suggesting that one’s opponents lack moral fiber.

The battle of ideas should be fought with the weapons of reason and logic alone.

That is not an intrinsically liberal idea. There is much to support in Ms. Mac Donald’s contention that conservatism is strong enough to prosper without being propped up by the language of religious piety.

But as Mr. Giuliani already seems to have demonstrated by his actions, many conservatives will never see things that way.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: christianvote; doa; giuliani; giulianitheliberal; gopdoa; rinoforprez; rudy; rudytheliberal
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“I’ve just been impatient over the last six years,” she told The Observer. “I don’t remember anything like this current assumption that candidates should talk about their relationship with God. What is that supposed to tell citizens?”
1 posted on 09/06/2006 9:13:57 AM PDT by Reagan Man
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To: Reagan Man

Giuliani's GOP:

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

2 posted on 09/06/2006 9:15:30 AM PDT by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: Reagan Man
When the President names Jesus Christ as his favorite political philosopher, uses a sly phrase like “wonder-working power” during a manifestly political occasion like a State of the Union address or invokes God in support of his decisions in Iraq, he seeks, at the minimum, to give his agenda a religious veneer.

(1) The question was about one's favorite philosopher, not one's favorite political philosopher.

(2) Is the author really suggesting that President Bush should avoid the rhetorical tropes employed by President Lincoln?

3 posted on 09/06/2006 9:19:03 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Reagan Man
viewed with suspicion by the religious right because of his pro-choice, pro-civil-union positions

Captain Obvious was here. Not to mention he's a gun-grabber.

4 posted on 09/06/2006 9:21:03 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Mother of a horde: it's not just an adventure - it's a job!)
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To: Reagan Man
curry favor with a voting bloc that will play a crucial role in electing the Republican Presidential candidate in 2008.

At least she is willing to admit who will be choosing the Republican nominee for Pres. I would suggest Rudy and others remember that.

5 posted on 09/06/2006 9:21:18 AM PDT by yellowdoghunter (Vote out the RINO's; volunteer to help get Conservative Republicans elected!)
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To: Tax-chick

"Not to mention he's a gun-grabber."

you beat me to it....


6 posted on 09/06/2006 9:22:45 AM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: wideawake
Is the author really suggesting that President Bush should avoid the rhetorical tropes employed by President Lincoln?

Sure. Only politicians who don't let their professed faith influence their political positions are allowed to mention God in public. (Several former presidents spring to mind ...)

7 posted on 09/06/2006 9:23:11 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Mother of a horde: it's not just an adventure - it's a job!)
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To: Tax-chick
I am really quite shocked that people even think Rudy has a chance of getting the Rep. nominee for Pres. He has a much better change of getting the Dem. nominee for Pres.

However, I am not to worried about having to face voting for Rudy in '08, I just do not think it is a possibility.

8 posted on 09/06/2006 9:23:16 AM PDT by yellowdoghunter (Vote out the RINO's; volunteer to help get Conservative Republicans elected!)
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To: taxed2death

RKBA is not a specifically "religious right" issue, but it's more than enough to keep me from voting for the man for any national office.


9 posted on 09/06/2006 9:24:22 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Mother of a horde: it's not just an adventure - it's a job!)
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To: yellowdoghunter
I am not too worried about having to face voting for Rudy in '08

No, I'm not, either.

10 posted on 09/06/2006 9:24:59 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Mother of a horde: it's not just an adventure - it's a job!)
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To: Tax-chick

It just irks me when someone can walk around 24 / 7 with armed security guards.....yet they won't allow or trust me with a firearm to protect myself and my loved ones. Something seems distinctly "un-American" about that.


11 posted on 09/06/2006 9:27:34 AM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: Reagan Man

“They ground their ideas in rational thinking and (nonreligious) moral argument. And the conservative movement is crippling itself by leaning too heavily on religion to the exclusion of these temperamentally compatible allies.”

This is because, in part, the number of non-believing conservatives is dwarfed by the number of believing conservatives.

Politicians, like Willie Sutton looking for money in banks, go where the votes are. If you're a conservative, it's with believers.


12 posted on 09/06/2006 9:30:30 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Reagan Man
Ms. Mac Donald admiringly told The Observer that the former Mayor "never invoked God, but transformed this city in ways that couldn't have been imagined."

That's a pretty bold statement by Mac Donald. How does she know? You mean to tell me that Rudy never prayed for guidance, especially during and after 9/11? He never prayed for strength to lead the city out of it's crime infestation?

13 posted on 09/06/2006 9:31:57 AM PDT by frogjerk (REUTERS: We give smoke and mirrors a bad name)
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To: Reagan Man
Michael Pakaluk has complained that Ms. Mac Donald's "mockery of common religious sensibilities … is so unfeeling as to border on the inhuman."

Michael Pakaluk lies down to recover from his attack of the vapors.

14 posted on 09/06/2006 9:32:51 AM PDT by steve-b ("Creation Science" is to the religous right what "Global Warming" is to the socialist left.)
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To: Reagan Man
"Giuliani Conservative..."

April Fools was months ago.

The invocation of religion in support of political beliefs is, above all else, a dangerously effective tool for foreclosing debate, discouraging scrutiny and suggesting that one’s opponents lack moral fiber.

The battle of ideas should be fought with the weapons of reason and logic alone.

This is precisely where the Objectivists fall down. Elevating belief in rationalism (objectivism) to the exclusion of a belief in God is just fooling yourself.

Normally, I like MacDonald, but she's off the deep end (as is the "author" of this screed) on this one.

15 posted on 09/06/2006 9:37:06 AM PDT by sauropod (Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." PJO)
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To: Reagan Man
When the President names Jesus Christ as his favorite political philosopher,

This is an lie. From the December 13th Des Moines debate 1999:

BACHMAN: Governor Bush, a philosopher thinker and why.

BUSH: Christ, because he changed my heart.

16 posted on 09/06/2006 9:38:21 AM PDT by frogjerk (REUTERS: We give smoke and mirrors a bad name)
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To: sauropod
This is precisely where the Objectivists fall down. Elevating belief in rationalism (objectivism) to the exclusion of a belief in God is just fooling yourself.

Amen.

17 posted on 09/06/2006 9:39:16 AM PDT by frogjerk (REUTERS: We give smoke and mirrors a bad name)
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To: sitetest
"Without God, there is no virtue, because there's no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society. And without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure. If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."

---- President Ronald Reagan, Prayer Breakfast 1984

18 posted on 09/06/2006 9:39:35 AM PDT by Reagan Man (Conservatives don't support amnesty and conservatives don't vote for liberals!)
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To: Reagan Man
When the President names Jesus Christ as his favorite political philosopher, uses a sly phrase like “wonder-working power” during a manifestly political occasion like a State of the Union address or invokes God in support of his decisions in Iraq, he seeks, at the minimum, to give his agenda a religious veneer.

Christians are not to relegate God to the closet under lock and key.

This is why John Kerry is no good. He is supposedly Catholic but votes for abortion.

19 posted on 09/06/2006 9:43:08 AM PDT by frogjerk (REUTERS: We give smoke and mirrors a bad name)
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To: Reagan Man
What is that supposed to tell citizens?

That it matters.

Such talk might just be read-my-lips syndrome, but it's calculated, reasonable, and logical all the same--even if it's not coming from the heart. They know the constituency for whom it matters.

20 posted on 09/06/2006 9:44:32 AM PDT by cornelis
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To: steve-b

Memo to the creator of that cartoon: The word, "queen" in "drama queen" does not refer to female royalty. Ironically, it refers to one of Gliuliani's larger constituencies.


21 posted on 09/06/2006 9:45:47 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Reagan Man
They ground their ideas in rational thinking and (nonreligious) moral argument.

The biggest problem with this statement is that rational thinking in the US is still grounded in Judeo-Christian morality. While atheists may see atheistic arguments for supporting our way of life there are equally compelling arguments for other ways of life - compelling if less comforting. That the atheist calls his arguments "moral" is evidence that it is based on a religious concept of what is right and what is wrong.

The second biggest problem with this statement is the implication that theists do not ground their ideas in rational thinking. It was theists who insisted on maintaining a right for people to believe whatever they will. It has, therefore, been incumbent upon theists in this country to defend their positions to believers and non-believers of all stripes whenever debating public policy.

Shalom.

22 posted on 09/06/2006 9:45:57 AM PDT by ArGee (The Ring must not be allowed to fall into Hillary's hands!)
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To: Reagan Man
“never invoked God,..."

Giuliani: "Thank God that George Bush is our president"

Every year Giuliani had an ash Cross on his forehead- all day- on the day that is religiously done by Catholics.

He attended Mass regularly.

Before he went into law he contemplated the Priesthood.

23 posted on 09/06/2006 9:47:47 AM PDT by Sabramerican (Bush Doctrine- Old: Fight terrorists. New: Cease fire with terrorists.)
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To: TommyDale
A Giuliani Conservative Tilts at Religion

A Giuliani conservative??? Kind of like a Clinton conservative except more to the left.

24 posted on 09/06/2006 9:48:07 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government)
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To: PARodrig; Clemenza; rmlew; firebrand; Yehuda; nutmeg; neverdem; cyborg; Coleus

ping


25 posted on 09/06/2006 9:50:04 AM PDT by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: Reagan Man

It's a silly controversy, as Giuliani is not a conservative, nor does he even resemble one.

His left-wing positions on guns and immigration have nothing to do with religion.

And even the same-sex "marriage"/civil union issue is not explicitly religious; it's fundamentally civilizational.


26 posted on 09/06/2006 9:50:19 AM PDT by B Knotts (Newt '08!)
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To: Reagan Man

Better start getting used to the idea of Rudy as the nominee - I know it kills a lot of you - but you can always take your toys and stay home.

I love watched people (social conservatives) get exercised when Rudy's name comes up. Reminds me of my 4 year old when she complains about bed time.

Free Republics Own Internal Poll

If Romney, McCain, and Giuliani were the only names on the ballot for the GOP 2008 nomination, whom would you vote for?
Giuliani
45.2%

Romney
28.1%

Sit it out
21.4%

McCain
5.3%


27 posted on 09/06/2006 9:56:46 AM PDT by Jake The Goose
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To: Sabramerican
>>>>Before he went into law he contemplated the Priesthood.

That would have been interesting. 'Father' Rudy could have started his own pro-choice church for abortions on demand. Weekly "how to" screenings of the partial birth abortion procedure.

The holier then thou, sanctification process of future presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani marches forward. Yuck. Pathetic and creepy.

28 posted on 09/06/2006 9:56:51 AM PDT by Reagan Man (Conservatives don't support amnesty and conservatives don't vote for liberals!)
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To: Reagan Man
Rudy won't need the Christian vote, or much of it. He'll pull enough people off the fence and even out of the left to win.

And he'll win without my vote.

29 posted on 09/06/2006 9:59:40 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (More and more churches are nada scriptura.)
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To: taxed2death

I agree 100%. I don't want to vote for people who think they're "more equal" than the rest of us. Rudy Giuliani's life isn't worth an iota more than mine!


30 posted on 09/06/2006 10:01:40 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Mother of a horde: it's not just an adventure - it's a job!)
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To: Reagan Man

The Real Rudy Giuliani:

Read more about Giuliani's liberal positions here and here.

Some people want Republicans to ignore his liberalism on almost every issue and, as a distraction, they try to pretend that Rudy is fiscally conservative. Again, his record shows that he isn't fiscally conservative either:

According to an article in The Nation from 2002:

It's now apparent that Giuliani purchased the city's good times partially with borrowed money and left his successor, Mike Bloomberg, holding a bag of debt. New York City went from a $3 billion budget surplus in 1998 to a $4.5 billion deficit after Giuliani left office. This mismanagement of prosperity is a big part of his legacy. Giuliani left the city's finances in a mess...

Here are some things Giuliani did as Mayor that were NOT anywhere near being fiscally conservative:

  • New York City went from a $3 billion budget surplus in 1998 to a $4.5 billion deficit after Giuliani left office.
  • Added 25,000 government employees patronage hires to the city's payroll after promising to cut the work force.
  • Giuliani's borrowing practices increased the city's debt burden by 50 percent.
  • Partly because of Giuliani, New York City is now the biggest debtor in the nation outside of the federal government with $42 billion in loans outstanding.

According to the article from The Nation:

During the 1960s Giuliani was a self-described "Robert Kennedy Democrat." He identified with RFK as a liberal Catholic prosecutor. He volunteered for RFK's 1968 presidential campaign while he was a student at NYU Law School. Giuliani also voted for George McGovern in 1972. During the liberal 1960s, he was a liberal.

But in 1975 Giuliani switched his party registration from Democrat to Independent when he got a job in Gerald Ford's Justice Department, according to his mentor Harold "Ace" Tyler.

On December 8, 1980, Giuliani changed his registration from Independent to Republican. This was one month after Ronald Reagan's election, and just as he was applying for a top job in the Justice Department.

So, to sum that up:

He's a liberal. He's not even in the same building as conservative. He's only a Republican because...and this comes from his own mother, Helen Giuliani:

"He only became a Republican after he began to get all these jobs from them. He's definitely not a conservative Republican. He thinks he is, but he isn't..."

And as John Hawkins put it in an excellent article in Human Events:

Despite all of his charisma and the wonderful leadership he showed after 9/11, Rudy Giuliani is not a Reagan Republican. To the contrary, Giuliani is another Christie Todd Whitman, another Arlen Specter, another Olympia Snowe. He's a throwback to the "bad old days" before Reagan, when the GOP was run by moderate Country Club Republicans who considered conservatives to be extremists. Trying to revive that failed strategy again is likely to lead to a Democratic President in 2008 and numerous setbacks for the Republican Party.


31 posted on 09/06/2006 10:01:55 AM PDT by Spiff (Death before Dhimmitude)
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To: Jake The Goose
Free Republics Own Internal Poll If Romney, McCain, and Giuliani were the only names on the ballot for the GOP 2008 nomination, whom would you vote for?

Three liberals and "sit it out" -- 80% chose their favorite liberal, 20% refused the choice.

32 posted on 09/06/2006 10:03:02 AM PDT by JohnnyZ ("I respect and will protect a woman's right to choose" -- Mitt Romney, April 2002)
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To: frogjerk

I think MacDonald was referring to public speaking or her experience of working with Guiliani. She makes a fair point that there are more than enough 'conservatives' who speak religiously but deliver something else.

Integrity and honesty are not always found in churches because God calls sinners to himself.

There are also plenty of "stinking white sepulchres" in politics. What is needed is some old fashioned, God-given rationality!


33 posted on 09/06/2006 10:04:17 AM PDT by Diggadave
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To: Spiff

34 posted on 09/06/2006 10:04:42 AM PDT by Jake The Goose
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To: Jake The Goose
>>>>Better start getting used to the idea of Rudy as the nominee - I know it kills a lot of you - but you can always take your toys and stay home.

I don't place much faith in a hypothetical internet poll. Obviously you do. We are 15 months away from the start of the GOP primary season, and over two years out from the general election. NO Republican has announced their intentions for 2008. If Giuliani runs, he will lose in the GOP primaries.

I agree with David Limbaugh`s comments on Sean Hannity'`s radio show yesterday. Social/religious conservatives will not vote for a pro-abortion, pro-PBA candidate. Not to mention Giulaini's staunch liberal position favoring even more gun control and an assault weapons ban. Add to it, Giuliani's positions favoring special rights for homos and illegals that do not exist in the Constitution.

Giuliani will start off having at least half the GOP vote against him in the primaries.

35 posted on 09/06/2006 10:08:39 AM PDT by Reagan Man (Conservatives don't support amnesty and conservatives don't vote for liberals!)
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To: Spiff; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ..

yes to mostly everything above and I doubt it if he could ever win a national election but he did transform NYC from a crap hole to one of the finest and safest larger cities in the world and did keep his cool (unlike chocolate-city nagin) during the worst crisis in American history.


36 posted on 09/06/2006 10:09:11 AM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, geese, algae)
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To: Reagan Man
“I don’t remember anything like this current assumption that candidates should talk about their relationship with God. What is that supposed to tell citizens?”

Well, it's supposed to tell citizens that the candidate intends to follow God's law and the principles of liberty and honesty based on that law.

That is, if the candidate is telling the truth. I don't think anyone could convince me to believe candidate Giuliani is telling the truth.

(P.S. the current poll on FR showing a Giuiani lead frightens me.)

37 posted on 09/06/2006 10:11:30 AM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Reagan Man

Very reasoned comments - thank you for that.

You might be right about the primary process - we will see.

One thing I will say is that whomever the Republicans decide for our nominee - that person will have my support and my vote.

I won't "stay home" regardless of any differences I may have with that person.

I will support our nominee.


38 posted on 09/06/2006 10:11:38 AM PDT by Jake The Goose
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To: Reagan Man
"When the President names Jesus Christ as his favorite political philosopher, uses a sly phrase like “wonder-working power” during a manifestly political occasion like a State of the Union address or invokes God in support of his decisions in Iraq, he seeks, at the minimum, to give his agenda a religious veneer."

This writer sure must think Lincoln was a devil. Just look at how he spoke - in his inaugural addresses and everything....

39 posted on 09/06/2006 10:14:52 AM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
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To: Reagan Man
Ah, more "nonreligious conservative" voices bleating in protest over those poor, ignorant Christians clogging the party. It's becoming quite a meme in recent months.

If they keep it up, maybe we'll get to see if they can win elections without us.

40 posted on 09/06/2006 10:15:28 AM PDT by jboot (Faith is not a work)
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To: Reagan Man

Gerald Ford was a libe4rtarian? In what universe?


41 posted on 09/06/2006 10:16:08 AM PDT by nickcarraway (No, they didn't give me a chaser.)
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To: Reagan Man

It's interesting how divisive the Rudy threads are. If he is the GOP standard-bearer in 2008, I expect the Constitution Party candidate will receive a significant bump in votes.


42 posted on 09/06/2006 10:18:32 AM PDT by BW2221
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To: yellowdoghunter

Yes, Rudy will not win. Amazing that he is completely soft on national security. Did you read where he wants a variety of services specially for illegal aliens? Not a man who will stand up for his country.


43 posted on 09/06/2006 10:23:25 AM PDT by Jane Austen
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To: Jane Austen
Did you read where he wants a variety of services specially for illegal aliens?
``````````````````````````````

No ...but last month I saw him on O'Reilly saying that we need to secure the border.
44 posted on 09/06/2006 10:27:35 AM PDT by Blackirish
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To: Reagan Man
The libertarian wing, he said, “is muted. They count for much less than they used to. In many ways, Gerald Ford was the last President to represent that tendency.

Gerald Ford a libertarian????

45 posted on 09/06/2006 10:28:12 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Jake The Goose
Since we have a couple years to go, along with a primary season and a convention, the choice for conservatives in 2008 might come down to the final months, weeks and days before the election. Maybe election day itself. Consider that when you find yourself being unable to control your rhetoric. Trashtalk is easy. If you want a united front in 2008, be respectful of conservatives. They constitute more then half of all GOP voters.

For well over 30 years all my votes have gone to a Republican candidate. Only once have I ever voted for a pro-choice candidate for POTUS. That was Gerald Ford in 1976. Back then Roe v Wade was only three years old and abortion rights wasn't a major political issue for the majority of Americans. Reagan changed all that in 1980. And since Reagan in 1980 every GOP candidate for Prez has been a pro-lifer.

As a conservative Republican, I've never voted for a true leftwing liberal politico in my life. As things stand today, I never will either.

46 posted on 09/06/2006 10:28:41 AM PDT by Reagan Man (Conservatives don't support amnesty and conservatives don't vote for liberals!)
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To: Reagan Man

As this thread shows if Rudy is nominated the relationship between the social right and the fiscal-libertarion/right may snap.

If Rudy wins in the general the dims could also split out of anger...one part a DNC repub lite the other an angry Move-on mob.

Maybe these splits are overdue and a good thing. We shall see.


47 posted on 09/06/2006 10:31:07 AM PDT by Blackirish
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To: Reagan Man

One issue one belief.

We can win without you.


48 posted on 09/06/2006 10:31:21 AM PDT by Jake The Goose
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To: Coleus
he did transform NYC from a crap hole to one of the finest and safest larger cities in the world and did keep his cool (unlike chocolate-city nagin) during the worst crisis in American history.

Maybe he'd like to relocate and run for Mayor of Houston, or something.

Speaking of "worst crisis in American history," U.S. Grant won the Civil War, was a personally virtuous man, supported the NRA, and had a swell beard ... but he was a rotten President!

49 posted on 09/06/2006 10:34:22 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Mother of a horde: it's not just an adventure - it's a job!)
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To: Reagan Man
“I’ve just been impatient over the last six years,” she told The Observer. “I don’t remember anything like this current assumption that candidates should talk about their relationship with God. What is that supposed to tell citizens?”

One of the Founding Fathers (John Jay, IIRC) commented that it is desireable for people to select and prefer Christians as their leaders. Not required, but preferred. We are, as a nation, a long way from where we came.
50 posted on 09/06/2006 10:36:48 AM PDT by JamesP81 ("Never let your schooling interfere with your education" --Mark Twain)
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