Posted on 09/07/2006 6:40:23 PM PDT by seanmerc
"Vote for RINO and we get amnesty in 4 years and vote for the Dems we get amnesty within 2 years. What a choice!!!"
Fee, what district are you in?
In my district the Republican is *against* amnesty.
THERE WERE 230 VOTES FOR HR4437, IT WAS AN ANTI-AMNESTY BILL. ALMOST ALL THE VOTES WERE BY REPUBLICANS.
It's a phony argument to say your choice is a RINO or a Democrat, there are plenty of real conservative Republicans who are in the right on these issues.
Santorum, Talent, Burns... and a lot of key House races.
If you dont want to support or help RINOs, then at least go out and help, with time/talent/treasure the *many* anti-amnesty Republicans who are in very hard races this year.
"atleast I will get to enjoy my conservative values longer before I eventually lose it all to the free trade globalist."
Our prosperity is enhanced by free trade. Arent you for lower taxes? And btw, where do you get the nutty idea that you have to be a 'globalist' to be for lower trade taxes (ie 'free trade'). I am for lower taxes on trade, but I am no globalist.
I am not against free trade as long as it is tempered by national security and social impact on our society. Globalists practice absolute free trade and tell government to handle all the unemployment, additonal costs of illegal immigration, and so what if the Red Chinese improves their weapons with our technology, we will worry about that later on as long as we can pocket the money NOW. By the way if the country collapses or is defeated by their short term profits, they simply wire their accounts to Switzerland and pack up their family and fly out on their private jets. The rest of us would be stuck fighting for our lives.
You ruined some reasonable analysis with this absurdly offtarget comment:
"It surprised many Republicans especially in the House at how small the anti illegal immigration vote is. They were told it was a big issue. But when most Repubicans went home all they heard from was people wanting cheap labor. When they came back after recess, they were looking at the results from the Hastert grass roots efforts to gin up support for the anti illegal immigration stand.. and it just wasn't there."
CT, that just aint so and if you dont know it, you should.
Even the mod-RINO Shays publicly says he got an earful when he went home that convinced him the Senate/amnesty approach was wrong. CT, if that *didnt* happen, the House would have folded by now. It wasnt the leadership who stopped it, it was the grassroots anger that kept the leadership (thankfully) from going off a cliff.
Another GOP legislator thought he was in the 'extreme' camp, but after a bunch of townhalls realized his position near Tancredo was "moderate" compared to what people were telling him.
KBH publicly noted that in the Senate bill, her letters and others were a flood and it was 99-to-1 against the egregious Senate bill.
These all were reported in the papers. But beyond that, I can tell you more wrt Cornyn getting multiple earfuls from similar encounters, and just about every data point I've seen suggests the passion on the issue is with anti-illegal immigration folks ... and with the illegals themselves, who came out on May 1st, and will only come out on election day in those precincts where Democrats are going to ignore
Did you know btw that strict Voter ID polls at 70%+ in Texas?
70% of *all* voters like the idea of photo ID to vote
(if not a driver's license, need a photo ID).
Yeah, there was a lot of public activism by ANSWER, the left, etc., and a big media push for amnesty ... all in concert with cheap labor lobby's attempt to get bigger immigration levels, but despite the push-polling, and despite the efforts, the people didnt bite.
Look at it this way - where are the votes for amnesty?
None for the GOP. Amnesty is all downside and no upside for any GOP legislator and that's a fact.
Now - The clear choice for anyone who is against amnesty is to vote for Republicans. If Democrats score gains it will be seen as a green light on amnesty. If Republicans win, then border security will be the focus. If the GOP caves in 2007 on amnesty, it will be a disaster for them in 2008.
"I am not against free trade as long as it is tempered by national security and social impact on our society"
Since the main 'social impact' is 'higher standard of living', I'm not sure what 'tempering' is needed beyond security issues.
The Republican position is of course to put national security first. That's beyond economics.
Example: Steel tariffs. Saved 10,000 stell makers jobs;
cost 100,000 other jobs and costs. Worth it?
Is the steel tariff 'tempering' something in a way that is worthwhile or just another tax that hurts the economy?
The latter, I think.
"Globalists practice absolute free trade "
No they dont. Globalists are mostly socialists.
Free trade is about economics. "Globalists" is a political term. You dont need to throw away your sovereignty when you have low tariffs, but maybe you drank the Buchananite koolaid and got confused by their attempts to conflate the two.
For example, Tony Blair and Bill Clinton are 'globalists'.
Kofi Annan is a 'globalist'. They want the world to be run as a collective Government, with the US constrained by these internationalist entities.
Then you have Ron Paul, the libertarian-style Republican from Texas, who thinks we should get out of the UN and UN should get out of the US.
Who is the one who is for free trade and low tariffs? Ron Paul, of course! Ron Paul understands free market economics. We cannot have a properly functioning free market economy in the US if we put huge taxes on trade. Free markets require free trade.
See ... Free Trade and Globalism are 2 different things.
"By the way if the country collapses or is defeated by their short term profits,"
Name a single country in history that has been 'defeated by their short term profits'. Know any? I dont!
We could collapse with bad economic policies, and in the US multiple recessions and even the great depression were caused in part by the excesses of protectionisnm. Free trade, especially since WWII, has been of great benefit to our standard of living.
Fee, Q I asked before: what Cong. district are you in?
HMmmmm that is an executive function. Are you saying way to make that work is to punish the one part of the goverment (the House) that voted for you? Sounds like it.
When the Democrats allow all illegal immigrants to become fast track citizens with voting rights, and allow unlimited Mexican immigration, it will not matter if you vote or not. There is no way your vote will ever count again.
Did you ever notice that when you decide to punish the Republicans by kicking them in the rump, your boot always ends up in your own a$$? Didn't think so!
Lets put it this way the house voted for what you wanted. So to punish them for that you are not going to vote for them. With logic like that, the best thing the House can do is pass the Senate version.....at least they will be pleasing someone.
I am simply saying to not acknowledge that the GOP leadership's handling of the illegal immigration issue is at the root of any morale problem the base may have is to delude oneself.
National Journal Poll taken August 18..20, 2006
The Most Important Issue facing the USA Today.
Likely Voters
War In Iraq : 28%
Terrorism : 14%
Economy : 11%
Politicians/ : 6%
dissatisfaction
Immigration : 5%
Environment : 3%
Unemployment : 3%
International: 3%
Situation
Morals : 3%
What data do you have to dispute this... I do know that Karl Rove is telling Bush it is no big deal. Apparently his polls say the same thing. Do you have polls or just a gut reaction?
The Dims and MSM have done a pretty good job of that the last three elections.
Eighty-four percent of Texans surveyed consider illegal immigration a serious problem. Scripps Howard Texas poll, December 11, 2005 http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/13383350.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
Fifty-six percent of Americans polled say Congress should be developing a plan for stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into the U.S. and for deporting those already here. CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll, Dec. 9-11, 2005 http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/2005-12-12-poll.htm
Seventy-five percent of voters believe immigration is very or somewhat important in an election. Angus Reid Global Scan, November 13, 2005 http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/9838
Eighty-one percent of Republicans say that the immigration issue is somewhat or very important. That view is shared by sixty-nine percent of Democrats and seventy-five percent of Independents. Rasmussen Reports, November 7, 2005 http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Immigration%20November%207.htm
Fifty-six percent of Republicans and fifty-one percent of Independents support proposals to end birthright citizenship (automatic granting of citizenship to the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens). Overall, 49% of those polled support such a policy. Rasmussen Reports, November 7, 2005 http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Immigration%20November%207.htm
Seventy-five percent of adults polled say the U.S. is not doing enough along its borders to keep illegal immigrants from crossing into this country. CBS News Poll, Oct. 3-5, 2005 http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm
Ninety percent of North Carolinians polled believe North Carolina has an illegal immigration problem. John William Pope Civitas Institute poll, September 2005 http://jwpcivitasinstitute.org/keylinks/poll_september.html
That's beside the point. The most important issue is not necessarily what is making people most upset and/or motivated to vote/not vote GOP.
A lot of folks who think 'terrorism is #1 issue' are hopping mad about border security.
"What data do you have to dispute this... I do know that Karl Rove is telling Bush it is no big deal."
Roll Call article ... what people really thing on immigration:
Here’s what the American people actually think about immigration reform and
border security, according to a broad range of recent national surveys:
• Sixty-three percent believe that illegal immigration is an extremely or very
serious problem. (Time, Jan. 24-26, 2006)
• They see immigration as a security issue first (41 percent), then an economic issue (29 percent),
and finally a civil rights/humanitarian issue (24 percent). (New Models, Oct. 30-31, 2005)
• They believe that illegal immigrants, overall, hurt the economy, by a 64 percent to 26 percent
margin. (Time, Nov. 29-Dec.1, 2005)
• They oppose allowing illegal immigrants to obtain driver’s licenses by a 72 percent to 25 percent
margin. (Quinnipiac University, Feb. 21-28, 2006)
• They believe that military troops should be used for border security by a 58 percent to 37
percent margin. (New Models, Oct. 30-31, 2005)
• They favor a proposal to build a 2,000-mile security fence along the U.S.-Mexico border by a 51
percent to 37 percent margin. (Fox News/Opinion Dynamics, Oct. 11-12, 2005)
• They agree that illegal immigrants should be able to apply for temporary work visas, 61 percent
to 38 percent. (New Models, Oct. 30-31, 2005)
• They support requiring proof of legal residency to obtain government benefits by an 84 percent
to 14 percent margin. (Quinnipiac University, Feb. 21-28, 2006)
• They believe illegal immigrants should have access to public schools, 52 percent to 48 percent.
(New Models, Oct. 30-31, 2005)
• They are more likely to vote for a candidate who favors tighter controls on illegal immigration, by a 71 to 11 percent.
http://www.winstongroup.net/inthenews/roll_call/2006/March282006.pdf#search=%22GOP%20poll%20immigration%20border%22
"I am simply saying to not acknowledge that the GOP leadership's handling of the illegal immigration issue is at the root of any morale problem the base may have is to delude oneself."
Skeeter, well said. I'm a loyalist who will be working overtime in my spare not-to-big time to help the GOP.
Some of us conservative Republicans are pained at the GOP's self-inflicted wounds by having so mayn RINOs side with the Democrats' amnesty/sellout position.
If the GOP fixed 3 things - spending, immigration, and Iraq - Bush and GOP would win in a landslide.
If they were the party they were twenty five years ago the democratic party would pass completely away. As it is, the GOP is operating the life support system keeping the whole corrupt racket breathing.
I believe you are right.
Heres a link for a mid-July NewMax story.Bush Team Raises $189 Million for Nov. Elections
"The most important issue is not necessarily what is making people most upset and/or motivated to vote/not vote GOP.
A lot of folks who think 'terrorism is #1 issue' are hopping mad about border security. "
Bump.
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