The Pope's point was the virtue of dialogue (dhimmi warning)

The Daily Telegraph ^ | 16/09/2006

[ScaniaBoy]

It is ironic that a papal visit remarkable for its lack of controversy in Christian terms should have stirred up a hornets' nest in the Islamic world.

During his tour this week of his native Bavaria, Benedict XVI referred only obliquely to issues such as women's ordination, priestly celibacy and joint Communion for Catholics and Protestants. But his quote from a late 14th-century dialogue on Christianity and Islam between a Byzantine emperor and a learned Persian has led to Pakistan's National Assembly unanimously demanding a retraction, and the chief cleric of India's biggest mosque calling on Muslims to "respond in a manner which forces the Pope to apologise". Just as it was last year over cartoons of the Prophet in a Danish newspaper, the Islamic world, from Indonesia to Morocco, is in uproar.

Given the sensitiveness of the issue, and the potential for violence, it is essential to examine the text of the lecture which Benedict gave at Regensburg university last Tuesday. In it, he describes Emperor Manuel II Paleologus as turning "somewhat brusquely" on his interlocutor and saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Manuel goes on to detail why propagating the faith through violence is unreasonable, and to state that failure to act in accordance with reason is against God's nature.

The Pope cites the emperor to buttress his argument that we need to rediscover the synthesis between Greek philosophy and Biblical revelation, or between reason and the eternal Word, the logos of which St John writes at the beginning of his gospel. Only then will we be capable of "that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today".

It is understandable that Muslims have taken offence at the emperor's words wrenched out of context. But the Pope was quoting them both to support his thesis that there is an analogy between God's "Creator Spirit" and our created reason, and to condemn the use of violence for religious purposes.

The image of jihad in the Western world has been reduced to that of holy war against infidels (just as sharia law is seen as the amputation of hands for theft and stoning for adultery). Jihad means much more than that, not least the personal struggle to seek the divine presence and promote God's word (and for most Muslims sharia prescribes patterns of worship and dietary practice rather than drastic punishment).

Terrorism falsely sanctioned by bigots is a scourge of both Islamic and Western societies. Rather than widening the gap between them, the Pope's lecture should be an incentive to deepen the dialogue.

[ScaniaBoy]

I posted this to show how weak the European defences are these days. The Daily Telegraph used to be able to differ right from wrong but no longer:

It is understandable that Muslims have taken offence at the emperor's words wrenched out of context.

Why doesn't the Telegraph ask the question who spread the out of context quote, and to what purpose?

The image of jihad in the Western world has been reduced to that of holy war against infidels (just as sharia law is seen as the amputation of hands for theft and stoning for adultery). Jihad means much more than that, not least the personal struggle to seek the divine presence and promote God's word (and for most Muslims sharia prescribes patterns of worship and dietary practice rather than drastic punishment).

Eh, .......any comments necessary?

[Bahbah]

Wrenched out of context??? I think not.

[ancient_geezer]

The image of jihad in the Western world has been reduced to that of holy war against infidels ... Jihad means much more than that

Says all that is necessary. Jihad obviously means world dominion by Islam over infidels and moslems as well, economically, politically and in religion.

Clear as a bell.

[InABunkerUnderSF]

The Islamic world should be made to apologize to our Holy Father.

[SkyPilot]

Believe it or not, there were posters on DU that were actually reasonable and sincere in their posting about this yesterday. You won't beleive it: "This Pope is a theologian and a scholar and instead of the "feel good" papacy of JP2, he actually researched and philosophized about the fundamental differences of religion. His lecture was rivetting and very intellectual." ____________________________________________________________________

And a different poster who is gay:

the snippet that has been lifted completely out of context and spread around the world as if it were an anti-Muslim polemic. What he was doing, in a very esoteric, academic and sleep-inducing lecture, was trying to talk about compulsion and faith, and faith vs. reason, and the secularization of Europe. That controversial quote came from some text that recorded a debate between a 13th century emperor and a highly educated Persian, with respect to their two religions. As a debater will do, the emperor said something provoking to the Persian, who then responded. What has been quoted as if it were an example of Ratzinger's bigotry was just a quote from the emperor in this debate, which Ratzinger used as a springboard to move into a general discussion of compulsion and faith and reason.

___________________________________________________________________________

The rest of it is Bush bashing (saying he is not a Christian, but Cater was), and some lamenting that JP II was a superior Pope.

Pope Benedict spoke the truth about Islam, and it struck a nerve because it is true.

If God chooses us to be of use to Him for His glory, that is a great honor. Each of us are different, and have different gifts. JP II helped to defeat Communism. That being said, I like this new Pope much better than JP II. I found his lack of willingness to deal with the rampant homosexuality in the ranks of the priesthood revolting. Moreover, he seemed to want to placate everyone, to the expense of Christianity itself.

[browardchad]

I read the Pope's speech as being about the synthesis of faith and reason. On one end of the spectrum is Islam, which denies the rational with its vengeful predeterministic god, and on the other end is European rationality, which has generally eradicated God in its worship of secularism.

The quote he used is interesting in the historical context (as opposed to the hysterical reception by Muslims and the media). The words were "part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402."

One could take the context to conclude that the Pope believes Europe is again under siege by Islam -- and ill-prepared to defend itself.

[gotribe]

Jihad means much more than that, not least the personal struggle to seek the divine presence and promote God's word...

This writer has no clue of muslim history. Actually, to the shia, jihad means forced conversion of infidels including muslims who don't keep allah's "will." It's what separated them in the beginning from the sunnis, partly what all the uproar is about.

[sgtbono2002]

---

"This Pope is a theologian and a scholar and instead of the "feel good" papacy of JP2, he actually researched and philosophized about the fundamental differences of religion. His lecture was rivetting and very intellectual." *******

So we all know now that the words spoken by the Pope went right over the heads of people who werent intelligent enough to figure out the message.

Islam is the religion of the ignorant. We already knew that. When you have thousands of people ready to commit suicide, somebody is damned ignorant.

[Pontiac]

Terrorism falsely sanctioned by bigots is a scourge of both Islamic and Western societies.

Should read:

Terrorism falsely sanctioned by Islamo-fascist bigots is a scourge of both Islamic and Western societies.

As is the norm the leftist MSM writers wish to promote their Cultural Equivalence Agenda that Islamic and Christian societies are equal in their propensity for violence.

[John Carey]

In it, he describes Emperor Manuel II Paleologus as turning "somewhat brusquely" on his interlocutor and saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Manuel goes on to detail why propagating the faith through violence is unreasonable, and to state that failure to act in accordance with reason is against God's nature.

Steve Cenatnni after his release: "I have great respect for the Islamic faith and learned a lot about it during captivity. I won’t really have any comment one way or the other about the conversion. They gave us the Quran and a lot of other books, and told us things and I know more about it now than ever."

Seems forced conversion still in vogue....

[Bahbah]

Seems forced conversion still in vogue....

Yes indeed. My sense is that the Pope is against it :)

[PGalt]

Outstanding post. Great comments. BTTT!

[hnj_00]

which part of what was stated by the pope that all the
shi-ite heads are portesting is incorrect or wrong?

ever notice that when they want an apology they burn churches/buildings rampage and call for a jihad...

whey they espouse evil or commit atrocities, they state freedom to express themselves

kind of like the lib/dems in the US except for the burning of the churches...especially if southern black churches...that is where the lib/dems go to campaign before every election!

[ClaireSolt]

In the end, this may turn out to be the most read and discussed Papal address in a very long time.

[goldstategop]

Liberals claim to understand the Muslims better than the Muslims understand themselves! They will be the first to be butchered if the Islamofascists win because a man with no beliefs is more dangerous than a man with confirmed beliefs.

(No more Olmert! No more Kadima! No more Oslo! )

[spatso]

"One could take the context to conclude that the Pope believes Europe is again under siege by Islam -- and ill-prepared to defend itself."

I think your right to search for deeper meaning in what he was saying. The idea that he was slamming all Islam as a violent religion is silly. At most he was saying that the passion of faith needs to be tempered by reason. Clearly he was not trying to establish that Islam in general and the Islam of terrorism are synonymous.

If Benedict had not used the Manuel II quote, the headline of this story might have been along the lines that Benedict believes the West has become so dependent on reason and so secularized it is incapable of being understood by Islam. Effectively, Benedict may be conceding he understands why Islam may see us as Godless.

If I were to go way out on a limb my assessment is that Benedict believes that we in the West have become too dependent on reason and the secular. The secular and reason is squeezing faith out of our lives and institutions. On the other hand, Islam is at risk because they do not allow reason or secular mechanisms (democracy) to inform their reliance on faith. I think he is asking the West to come back to faith and Islam to consider reason. A courageous lecture.

[yoe]

The mental image of Huago Chavez and Ahmadinejad and others sitting around a table bemoaning the veto power in the Security Council by the United States makes me chuckle – at the same time Islam is demanding an apology from the Pope.

Chavez = Catholicism
Russia = primarily Orthodox
Cuba = still predominately Catholic
Iran = Islam

The latter not compatible with any of the others.

[wolfcreek]

Too bad there's not an international news agency with the balls to put out daily disparagement's against Muslims. Push them to the wall and see where they bounce. After all, turnabout IS fair play!

[AFPhys]

Agreed.


I wish people would READ WHAT THE POPE ACTUALLY SAID:

http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748

[Gritty]