Beretta Backers Beat Down the .45 Revival

Strategy Page ^ | 9/25/06 | n/a

[kiriath_jearim]

September 24, 2006: Earlier this year, the U.S. Department of Defense began a search for a new .45 caliber combat pistol. Now that search has been mysteriously called off. The Department of Defense has announced, without any explanation, that is no longer looking for a new combat pistol.

Last January, after two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense appeared to be getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm, as well as reliability problems with the Beretta. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta.

Back in January, SOCOM was given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs were to be evaluated, but all had to be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 was also to have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length was to be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense planned to buy 645,000 JCPs. But now, the troops are being told to keep their 9mm Berettas, and all the complaints they have about those weapons.

[philetus]

Foreign arms backers beat down American arms backers?

[Bernard Marx]

I bought a .380 Llama many years ago for concealed carry. It's built just like a scaled-down 1911. With Cor-Bon loads it would be a whole lot better than nothing in a pinch. Fortunately, so far I've never had to find out just how good it is.

[Tijeras_Slim]

Well, ol'Slim's a bit of a gun contrarian by the standards of accepted wisdom (which seems to run in a cyclical fashion). Don't have a 9mm currently, traded my last one a Sig 225 for a collectable .38 Smith. In revolvers I'm fond of .44 Specials and .45 moonclip guns, although I was considering making a Fitz Special out of an old New Service in .44-40 (there's a logistical nightmare for you - "Excuse me Achmed, where is the local purveyor of Cowboy Action Shooting Goods?") In autos, I confess a weakness for the Super .38 and can't understand why everyone doesn't make one. For teeny tiny, although I have a Mustang I don't trust it for absolute reliability, and would probably go for a scandium J frame in .22 Mag ("Officer, keep a lookout for the deaf guy with burn marks on his shirt.")

Of course all the above is moot if I can get to one of my Winchester M-12's or Browning A-5's. :)

[PoorMuttly]

FITZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ohhhh, you have hit my hidden nerve.

I HATE trigger guards. They just don't accept a gloved finger. People in America are larger than they were, I think, but our firearms are the same as they always were. Imagine if we made clothing that way. Grrrrrrrr. Just hate 'em. S/S shotgun guards, even winter triggers, fine. At least the d.a. Colt shape is deeper at the front. FITZ !!! Although I would not chop up an older gun, I sure would alter a replacement guard, or alter a new one.

The Super is great, actually great, and Melvin Purvis carried one. Experience.

Moon clips are handy too, but they say they may be less reliable, prone to malfunction in a combat or dangerous game gun. I bought my Redhawk mainly as a wild boar sidearm, for self defense. I was about to get a Dan Wesson for .45 Rowland or .45 Mag., but I think it may have been Paco who advised against the clips. My friend, I only report. One should find his/her own way. The unforseen comes into it, as does one's own nature and behavior. I.e.: my personal choice of staying with 9mm because of what I see as the prospect of resupply through barter, or more unpleasant means, under mortal pressure in an all-out survival general emergency situation sounds prudent to me, now. However, what if the detestable does take place, and 9mm rounds are the new gold. People hoard them, trade them only for food and fuel. There may only be .38 Super, 7-.30 Waters, 10mm, .22 Hornet....and .221 Fireball available for trade!

Of course Squantos, who believes that he is related to Eaker somehow, has an Eaker-like theory that he should only carry firearms in rare or obsolete cartridges, which the dirtball who kills him will not be able to get.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrbth...kak!......kak!!

O.K. I'm better now. I do not trust my Mustang anymore either. I think it may be the plastic parts. Some day. The president of NAA spoke about the utility of .22 Mag. in 2" guns. He said it is questionable that they are any better than .22 LR. Louder though! Hey, while being killed, I'd take louder, too!

Forensic pathologist Dr. Fackler states that the .25ACP is better than .22RF in the Beretta pistol because it does not have an extractor...pure blowback....and sometimes they fail to extract, and one must pry them out. Gulp. That has always been the rationale for .25 Auto, along with securely crimped jacketed bullets, centerfire reliability, and quick magazine replacement reloading. He also claims that performance is identical from short barrels, and that only Ball should be used, for maximum penetration depth, which expanding bullets will not reach.

The Squantos carries a lightweight .22 revolver on his ankle, with 50 rounds of Stingers. 'Works for him.

Old M12s are great. Great if yours have the old trigger system. That's the top choice, though I do not recall if they were made in 3" magnum, which may be handy later on, barter wise. There I go again. I know. I know.

The A-5s are great. Remington made that design too. Not only never a problem with the not present gas-operation system, but until the current Benelli shotgun and rifle with its forward mounted gas system....these great old recoil operated shotguns are the only autos which can work with pistol grips...as Mr. Dillinger knew quite well.

Yep, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, Machinegun Kelly, Babyface Nelson....Melvin Purvis...knew what works.

Still does.

Have a nice day, y'all. Count and cultivate your blessings. It gets worse....a LOT worse. If it is to happen, do not let it happen easily.

[Tijeras_Slim]

The Squantos carries a lightweight .22 revolver on his ankle, with 50 rounds of Stingers.

That sly devil always did accesorize well. :) Be well friend Muttly.

[PoorMuttly]

An episode in last season's t.v. show The Unit portrayed a use of the 950 Jetfire. Our Delta fella pulled it out of his jeans and shot a killer spy guy in the chest 3 or 4 times. The bad guy went down, and our soldier stepped on his neck as he called in the frequency and coordinates on the spy radio. Down, but not out.

Of course, if one were to accidentally shoot one's self or another innocent person, they would probably die on the spot.

[LIConFem]

Wheel guns are real guns!

;o)

[LIConFem]

Fergot the dang'd pic...

[PoorMuttly]

Yes, our pal is a real fashion plate. What a stylish dude.

Of course, most of his accessories are concealed. More's the pity. Can't see anyone topping him in the Barbecue Gun department either!


Let freedom, and wisdom....RING! (wear effective hearing protection when advisable)

"Stand back while I celebrate Freedom!" -- Homer Simpson



You make sure to be well to, Amigo.

[tcostell]

My Wife has a Springfield Armory XD9, but for most applications she prefers her 7.62x39mm:

A proper "Girls Gun"

[PoorMuttly]

...too.

Thought I'd save a little ink.

D'oh!!!!!!!!!

[unspun]

Foreign arms backers beat down American arms backers?

Hobbyist comments aside, this smells very fishy an IMHO is grounds for an immediate Congressional investigation. Seems that either money or politics is afoot here -- probably both.

[unspun]

There is no excuse for not honoring our military personnel, who serve this country by putting their lives on the line, the best available tools.

[TChris]

quite a bit of 10mm ammo is only loaded to 40 S&W specs...

That's precisely how the .40 S&W was developed. Full-load 10mm just had too much recoil for effective follow-up shots, according to the FBI. The load they liked was used to develop the shorter-case .40 S&W.

[epow]

The magazines are real POS for the current issue M9.

That's what I have heard from several sources who should know. The Beretta 92 variants are all excellent, reliable handguns even though I don't especially care for the 9mm NATO chambering, but no semiauto weapon is worth a tinker's dam without a top quality magazine. As I understand it, the military procurement bureaucracy purchased aftermarket replacement magazines for the M9 that are junk.

Original equipment Mec-Gar magazines that come in Beretta pistols are good quality mags, and the replacement magazines should have been bought from the same source. I have replaced the cheap aftermarket magazines in my 1911 pistols with Wilson Combat magazines, and since changing over my guns have never failed to function reliably every time I pull the trigger.

[epow]

The .25 is a ladies gun unless you shoot someone in the head with it point-blank several times, like the Mossad used to do.

IIRC the Mossad boys used the little 950 Beretta chambered in .22 short rimfire for the up close and personal executions they carried out on some of the kidnappers who killed those Israeli athletes at the Olympics in Germany. The .22 short has about the same power level as the .25 auto, but it's quieter and the soft lead bullet works better on brain tissue for the type of work the Mossad used it for. If you place the bullet properly so that it travels through the ear canal and into the brain even a .22 CB round will do the job.

I have seen my dad and my grandfather kill many cattle and hogs with a .22 short to the animals' foreheads at close up range. The cows always fell instantly like a ton of bricks from that one tiny bullet to the brain.

[epow]

Years ago, I fired a .45 auto Colt. Holy smokes, sounded and felt like a cannon going off!

You just need to fire it some more, experience soon diminishes the FELT recoil of any gun even though the actual recoil remains the same. Compared to real powerhouse handgun rounds like the .45 Casull or the .480 Ruger the old .45acp is a pussycat to shoot, but it's bullet carries a big enough punch to usually do the job when it hits a human target.

[roaddog727]

Bond used a Walther PPk .380 auto.

[RexBeach]

It was loud and strong...but it was great!

[epow]

Forensic pathologist Dr. Fackler states that the .25ACP is better than .22RF in the Beretta pistol because it does not have an extractor...pure blowback....and sometimes they fail to extract, and one must pry them out.

I have a Beretta 950 chambered for .22 short. After the first few hundred rounds were fired through it it has been 100% reliable with both Remington and CCI ammo.

I have roughly 0% faith in it's ability to stop an attacker, but even so it's better to have along than nothing on those many occasions in summer when only the very smallest gun can be concealed under hot weather clothing. After all any gun poses a threat to an attacker, nobody wants to be shot with any gun, not even a .22 short.